Cream "Gibson" Color Survey?

[Dave Kerr]

My reply was to the assertion that Allman "played what came with the guitar", nothing more. And yeah, to me he sounded great on whatever he chose to play.
I remember reading an interview with Warren Haynes where he talked about visiting the Gibson factory and auditioning a large number of guitars before choosing a couple for himself. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that some players from 40-50 years back took a similar approach, or at least were as discriminating wherever they selected their gear.

[David Schwab]

My reply was to the assertion that Allman "played what came with the guitar", nothing more. And yeah, to me he sounded great on whatever he chose to play.

Supposedly Duane liked the bridge pickup from his old guitar better, because it was hotter, than the one in the new guitar, so he swapped pickups.

I was just pointing out that he played many guitars, most with PAFs, so we don't know what guitar we are hearing.

[RedHouse]

You are misinterpreting my statements as dissing....

Nope, your dis'ing comes through loud and clear. In just your last post (170685) you've got five negative statements about others in just the first paragraph, can't you see?

I think I see the problem though, you're trying so hard to posture yourself as "the expert" in all things PAF but at the same time your "research" findings you've delared your "secrets", so all that's left is to throw the negative-spin hyperbole thing around to elevate yourself in the market place.

...I actually proved to myself in a blind audio clip test on the MLP forum that few know what to listen for. I didn't tell anyone there was a real PAF in amongst my test samples of what I was working on at the time. Sam Lee caught it right away, the others missed it and rated it low on the scale. But PAF's ARE the pickups that made all those classic tones from great artists, can you imagine Duane Allman without those pickups?...

Well there's a problem with interpreting you "research" findings if that's how you prove things. You missed the two biggest points you collected, people didn't pick your ringer (why d'ya think?) and people generally don't like the "old PAF" sound as much as you think they should. Bummer 'eh?.

{Edit} (erronious info given on Duanes Hot Lanta)

Clapton used a Dallas Rangemaster in the Blues Breakers era and early cream which if you do some "research" on you will find it has a +6db high pass roll-off (actually roll-on in this case) which makes it sound soooo much more trebly that a pickup plugged straight into an amp.

Page used a Roger Mayer modified Tone Bender on most of the first two albums, and the Les Paul was a old 3 pickup Black Beauity (mahogany top) which has the bridge and middle pickups wired in parallel and out of phase when the switch was in the middle position. The PAF tone of Page's lesters are most commonly and clearly heared in the live recordings in their raw form where he mostly used modified Marshalls (KT88's and other mods) and often played into an old tube echoplex before the amp which gives much distortion when set right (wrong?).
(see the Morocco video on the No Quarter DVD for a great example, you will recognise the tone)

Most rockers you ask would cite the cool sizzling tone Page had in the SRTS movie doing Rock-n-Roll as the epitome of the Jimmy Page Les Paul/Marshall sound. That is the basis for wanting hot would pickups, too bad, it was his rig that got him there. Even a novice can tell the difference between that SRTS tone and the tone you hear in the tracks on the How The West Was Won songs like Hearbreaker or The Ocean, same guitar, same PAF's but waaaay different tone ...because of the amps and his other gear.

Anyway regarding blind testing, back when I first started building amps my best old friend (Arnie) and I decided we would do blind testing, we called it "Pepsi Challege" testing like the old commercials in the 70's. Anyway we quickly learned that it's no surprise when people can't pick out a ringer in a test session. We were testing for capacitor tone and found people could tell what they liked best, but not which capacitors were actually used in a given test. One test still sticks in my mind using the testbed amp (Plexi style, see attached pic) which had 3-way switches for all coupling and tone capacitors, we could test say Mustards against Mallory's or OD's or SoZo's. Most amp folks say that Mustards sound the best with the Sozo and Mallory's comming in a close second and completely dis' the Sprague Orange Drops, but our blind listening group of six (accomplished musicians and two mid-level recording engineers) all said the OD's sounded best which was not expected. To mix things up we re-ran some tests but this time when we switched caps during the A/B test ...we actually didn't... it was surprising how many people actually "heared into" things with their brain and not the ears. We found that people can pick out what they like best but can't always differentiate between two examples without clues and they have trouble when you slip in a ringer, if they know it's there they look for it, if they don't know they will just choose what they like best even if it's not your ringer.

You can't really take a PAF apart, get a lab report, make copy parts and expect to nail it

But isn't what you've been doing? in following along in these forum threads for a few years now you keep telling everyone how you have your (un-named) friend(s) do metalurgy testing (or whatever your current point is) and how you have "studied" and "researched" your PAT-Nos the parts the winding patterns etc...ad infinitum ...ad nausium.

...Here's a really good example of one thing that goes completely over the head of the handwinders, when I mention the "resonant peak" characteristics of PAF's, they don't don't have a clue what I'm talking about...

That's actually a prime example of how you elevate yourself at the expense of others. How do you actually convince yourself of that crap or just throw it out there for general consumption?

What makes you think _YOU_ are "the one" that understands things? dude, get a grip, is it that painful for you to accept that 80% of the folks that hang around here know what you know? have done their own "research" and can hear tone maybe even better than you?.

...I'm not putting myself on a pedestal here, just calling it like it is, blows my mind that I don't see anyone with the driving obsessive inquisitiveness to have figured these pickups out, in the commercial world, but its understandable that few would want to do the massive amounts of work I've done myself...

Well Dave, pretty much you are, and do so constantly.

But what blows my mind is what you call "research" much of the time. In threads past you've demonstrated that you've "researched" things which later in the thread turn out to be simply Googl'ing and/or some Wiki'ing or quots off some website as your source of your "research".

[RedHouse]

What pickups are in this '61 SG?

Yeah, Duane and Dickey used to swap off using that SG a lot, it was kind of a common-use backup guitar between them.

Here's a vid of Dickey taking a turn on it:

YouTube - 1970 Allman brothers Duane on guitar

[David Schwab]

Yeah, Duane and Dickey used to swap off using that SG a lot, it was kind of a common-use backup guitar between them.

Here's a vid of Dickey taking a turn on it:

YouTube - 1970 Allman brothers Duane on guitar

Yeah, it was Dickey's guitar and he gave it to Duane.

Now I need to go listen to Eat a Peach.

That's a sweet looking test bed amp. Oh and Pepsi beats Coke every time! (that's why they made (New) Coke (II), which was a Pepsi copy, and then people complained about it until they turned it into Diet Coke which is their best seller... Coke II was great! )

[Possum]

If you think my statement that none of the commercial companies aren't making PAF's right, nor most of the "booteek" guys is dissing, then consider yourself dissed if you want to feel that way, LOL. Make yourself feel real bad, have fun. No, you can't take a PAF apart, copy the parts and make it work, yes I did that so I know it doesn't work, you have to look alot deeper, which takes actual work. Nothing was handed to me that made anything easy. Nothing was handed to me that made anything work. The only one who put the puzzle pieces together was me. You can't use the core parts sold by StewMac and make PAF's out of them, get out of that box. The hole I dug for myself works fine thank you very much. The pickups Duane swapped away were 7.3K each, I think he like hotter PAF's. So whats the point? The point is I loved PAF's enough to figure them out and devote massive amounts of time and money getting there. I don't apologize for knowing how they work. A '61 is still technically a true PAF, so is a '62, a '63 is a PAF with poly wire, only the wire back then isn't the same, see my thread on vintage wire.

[RedHouse]

...That's a sweet looking test bed amp...

Well it looks kinda weird but saves me tons of time anymore trying to dial-in a player to an amp tone.

It used to be a long process, sometimes taking hours of sitting down with a guy and tone-testing, soldering Iron and box-o-parts at the ready, "What you looking for...here try this...too much of that...here try this...not enough of something" and so on. Now I can sit a client down and while they play flip a few switches and adjust a few trimpots and get everything in the ballpark ...then do that work to his amp (or build him one with those attributes). Saves tons of time and time is the only thing in short supply in my shop.

[soundmasterg]

Oh forgot, I don't mention my mentor's name because he likes his privacy, and he's not really a pickup maker by profession, but has a long history in the music world and has alot of examples of different vintage pickups etc. Very nice man. I think he likes me because I'm weird....

You're talking about me again. Its ok, you can say my name Possum.

[Possum]

Nope Greg, Sound-MASTER-GEE, its not you, you're just my master He posts here as Sam Lee Guy, when he speaks pay attention. He knows how much work I've put in on my products, besides "google searching and Wikipedia," LOL, got a hoot out of that one.

[JGundry]

Listen, I'm very disappointed with how this thread has gone. It was intended to evolve into my own personal chest thumping party. Now Possum has gone and messed it up by turning it into his own personal wank fest. So I guess I will have to turn it into my own personal ultra wank fest. So here it goes. I make the most awesomest, super primo, PAF ever. Seriously, check it out. You will cry yourself to sleep if you have not already. Years of research, I mean when I started I had no grey hair and now I have some. I even lost a little hair, I think. I know Possum lost some hair but I think he eats his so that does not count. Okay back to me. Really I mean since everyone knows I have the most awesomest PAF's why are you guys even wasting your energy typing anything other than praise for me? Okay so from now on I only want to see posts that reaffirm my most awsomest PAF maker EVER status. Otherwise I'm having the moderator shut this down.

[Spence]

Listen, I'm very disappointed with how this thread has gone. It was intended to evolve into my own personal chest thumping party. Now Possum has gone and messed it up by turning it into his own personal wank fest. So I guess I will have to turn it into my own personal ultra wank fest. So here it goes. I make the most awesomest, super primo, PAF ever. Seriously, check it out. You will cry yourself to sleep if you have not already. Years of research, I mean when I started I had no grey hair and now I have some. I even lost a little hair, I think. I know Possum lost some hair but I think he eats his so that does not count. Okay back to me. Really I mean since everyone knows I have the most awesomest PAF's why are you guys even wasting your energy typing anything other than praise for me? Okay so from now on I only want to see posts that reaffirm my most awsomest PAF maker EVER status. Otherwise I'm having the moderator shut this down.

Aw, shite! I was all ready to believe you were joking for a minute there Jon.

But before we return to your excellent colour bobbins ( and I do mean that ) I will just say that I showed this thread to a behavioural scientist who having analysed the rants, came to the conclusion that this is mostly about failure to sell pickups. I didn't need to show her any other rants on other threads. If it is the case that he's not selling pickups as expected then I for one sympathise but no one here is going to buy any anyway. Wrong place to be venting anger really.

[Joe Gwinn]

Anyway regarding blind testing, back when I first started building amps my best old friend (Arnie) and I decided we would do blind testing, we called it "Pepsi Challege" testing like the old commercials in the 70's. Anyway we quickly learned that it's no surprise when people can't pick out a ringer in a test session. We were testing for capacitor tone and found people could tell what they liked best, but not which capacitors were actually used in a given test. One test still sticks in my mind using the testbed amp (Plexi style, see attached pic) which had 3-way switches for all coupling and tone capacitors, we could test say Mustards against Mallory's or OD's or SoZo's. Most amp folks say that Mustards sound the best with the Sozo and Mallory's coming in a close second and completely dis' the Sprague Orange Drops, but our blind listening group of six (accomplished musicians and two mid-level recording engineers) all said the OD's sounded best which was not expected. To mix things up we re-ran some tests but this time when we switched caps during the A/B test ...we actually didn't... it was surprising how many people actually "heared into" things with their brain and not the ears. We found that people can pick out what they like best but can't always differentiate between two examples without clues and they have trouble when you slip in a ringer, if they know it's there they look for it, if they don't know they will just choose what they like best even if it's not your ringer.

This kind of expectation bias is common, and is the reason to do double blind tests: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer-expectancy_effect

In what year were these tests conducted?

As for the capacitors, were the capacitors being compared within about 1% of the same capacitance? Run of the mill capacitors have +/- 20% tolerance, and differences in rolloff frequency may obscure differences in capacitor dielectric type, et al.

[RedHouse]

This kind of expectation bias is common, and is the reason to do double blind tests: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer-expectancy_effect>

In what year were these tests conducted?

As for the capacitors, were the capacitors being compared within about 1% of the same capacitance? Run of the mill capacitors have +/- 20% tolerance, and differences in rolloff frequency may obscure differences in capacitor dielectric type, et al.

Yeah after the fact I did learn that, _but_ discovered it for myself with "all my research" LOL

We did the first testing back in '96, but the Sozo's didn't come out 'till later (2004/2005?) anyway I had to dig out my notes, here is what I had written in my "research" book:

NEW
Sprague Orange Drops (716P series) Polypropylene Film-n-Foil - 5% tolerance - 85C
Sprague Orange Drops (225P series) Polyester Film - 5% tolerance - 85C
Mallory 150 series - Polyester Film - 10% tolerance - 125C
Sozo - (doesn't provide data sheets)
USED
Vintage Mustard caps - no idea what the original spec's were
(pulled from equipment over the years, mostly Marshall's)
NOS
Sprague "VitaminQ" - part# 196P2236S2 Paper-n-Oil
Sprague "DiFilm" "Black Beauties" part# 6TM-S
Various sourced Bumble-Bee's (all used pull's from old tube equipment, receivers etc.)

All caps were checked for proper uF values before installing and testing, all were allowed to burn-in (be used) for 6 hours. The tolerance issue was moot as it has to be accepted as part of the testing, all amps have such caps so there is no tight control secimen to be relied on, besides this wasn't "scientific testing" it was musical ears testing which is by nature opinionated.

[Joe Gwinn]

Yeah after the fact I did learn that, _but_ discovered it for myself with "all my research" LOL

Well, you seem to have figured it out, so you have at least a prayer of getting valid results despite all those humans.

We did the first testing back in '96, but the Sozo's didn't come out 'till later (2004/2005?) anyway I had to dig out my notes, here is what I had written in my "research" book:

NEW
Sprague Orange Drops (716P series) Polypropylene Film-n-Foil - 5% tolerance - 85C
Sprague Orange Drops (225P series) Polyester Film - 5% tolerance - 85C
Mallory 150 series - Polyester Film - 10% tolerance - 125C
Sozo - (doesn't provide data sheets)
USED
Vintage Mustard caps - no idea what the original spec's were
(pulled from equipment over the years, mostly Marshall's)
NOS
Sprague "VitaminQ" - part# 196P2236S2 Paper-n-Oil
Sprague "DiFilm" "Black Beauties" part# 6TM-S
Various sourced Bumble-Bee's (all used pull's from old tube equipment, receivers etc.)

All caps were checked for proper uF values before installing and testing, all were allowed to burn-in (be used) for 6 hours. The tolerance issue was moot as it has to be accepted as part of the testing, all amps have such caps so there is no tight control specimen to be relied on, besides this wasn't "scientific testing" it was musical ears testing which is by nature opinionated.

The +/- 5% tolerance caps are likely close enough, but 10% and larger is asking for it. The problem is subtle - people think the sharper or more mellow sound is due to the kind of dielectric, whereas it's really that one capacitor value was +20% over marked value, while the other was -20%, for a total span of 40%, which can be heard.

I suppose the critical test would be a pair of capacitors of the same make and model, but different value. What is the smallest detectable difference in capacitance? A capacitor substitution box could work for such tests.

Or just use a bunch of capacitors and measure each one with the Extech. We don't care if the caps are high or low, so long as they are matched well enough.

Musicians or scientists, it doesn't matter - only well-matched double blind tests allow one to see past people and their biases and opinions.

[belwar]

I'm actually in the process of building a cap testing rig. I've bought every type of capacitor possible in bulk so that I can find the closest values matching possible and I plan to put them in a box on a rotory switch.

I have to make a decision though as to whether or allow caps in parallel or caps in series.. Doing both expands my choices for caps..

So far I have PIO, Polypropylene, teflon, mica, ceramic, aluminum/paper/oil, and another of the poly's, and a few others.

I figure im going to allow caps in parallel but not in series.