View Poll Results: How did you find this wiring modification ?

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  • Gorgeous, I'll build it

    22 37.93%
  • Very inspiring

    14 24.14%
  • Quite interesting reading

    13 22.41%
  • Clear and precise

    3 5.17%
  • Unclear and confusing

    3 5.17%
  • Useless and boring

    9 15.52%
  • A total mess

    3 5.17%
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Thread: Les Paul Jimmy Page wiring with 42 sounds

  1. #36
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    thanks for the quick reply, giangui! so this is what borsanova meant with 1&1/2 - ok, i know parallel mode (i have it installed in another guitar).
    with the master mode you have, the second volume has no function at all, or does it influence the mix between the 2 pickups?
    ross

  2. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by tedmich View Post
    strictly my opinion here but guitar controls are largely useless to me; a responsive tube amp is where the sound variations lie. I remember seeing an early 70"s guitar with tiny dual 7 band eq slider pots...silly. And 44 sounds? good luck finding any you want when you want it... how about this setup?

    >150 combinations w/ 2 HBs....
    >1000 with 3/HBs


    Guitar Max Pickup Control System


    silly...
    Interesting like other systems like that
    Press Releases - Seymour Duncan Serves Up A Triple Shot! - Seymour Duncan/Basslines

    I agree...what you really need are just a good guitar and a good amp...but you know...it's just a way for having fun!

  3. #38
    Pickup Maker David Schwab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stealth View Post
    All I can say is god forbid someone makes a variant of this for a twin-pickup, dual-coil bass. This could be a killer tone switcher.
    Been there... it's not all that useful. The difference in tone from one coil to another in a humbucker is slight, and then out of phase tones are not very useful for bass.

    At one point I had three pickups with about nine switches and six knobs on my Rick 4001. Most of the tones weren't all that interesting, and some where redundant. But there was a hand full of good ones.

    These days I keep it simple, but I do find I use series parallel switches for each pickup though.

    Now on guitar, out-of-phase sounds can be very useful since loosing the low end isn't a bad thing. Brain May is a good example.
    It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. Albert Einstein

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  4. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by rosstiger View Post
    thanks for the quick reply, giangui! so this is what borsanova meant with 1&1/2 - ok, i know parallel mode (i have it installed in another guitar).
    with the master mode you have, the second volume has no function at all, or does it influence the mix between the 2 pickups?
    ross
    the second (neck) volume has no function at all only when splitted to serial mod of course while in this case (splitted to serial) the second (neck) tone works as a treble booster (from 10 to 0 at 0 you get the clearest sound)

    Giangui

  5. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by giangui View Post
    Interesting like other systems like that
    Press Releases - Seymour Duncan Serves Up A Triple Shot! - Seymour Duncan/Basslines

    I agree...what you really need are just a good guitar and a good amp...but you know...it's just a way for having fun!
    Whoa. I must have

  6. #41
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    mistake in the diagram?

    I built the Twenty Dual Master version and I cannot hear any difference on the bridge dual and single coil modes. I suspect that it never gets to single coil, as I do not hear a volume drop.
    My wirings seem to be ok, so I checked the diagram. There seems to be a problem. For the neck to be in single coil, the wires 2 and 3 should both be routed to ground, right? But I cannot see how the wire 3 would ever get that. When the BT is pulled it gets routed to NT but then when it is pulled it simply floats?
    Could someone verify this? I have already an idea how to fix this, but it is a pain to modify now that everything is in place.

    thx, o-p

  7. #42
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    Could someone explain the capacitors in this diagram? Why are there four?

    Are the two on the volume treble bleeds?

    Also is the following accurate?:

    ok call me stupid but i wanna double check on the pickup labeling am i right that
    adjust pol
    1 coil start 5 coil start
    2 coil finsish 6 coil finish
    slug poles
    4 coil start 8 coil start
    3 coil finish 7 coil finish

    so with seymour duncan pickups
    bridge neck
    1 green 8green
    2 red 7 red
    3 white 6 white
    4black 5 black
    Last edited by bertbacharat; 01-21-2010 at 12:03 AM.

  8. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeguri View Post
    I built the Twenty Dual Master version and I cannot hear any difference on the bridge dual and single coil modes. I suspect that it never gets to single coil, as I do not hear a volume drop.
    My wirings seem to be ok, so I checked the diagram. There seems to be a problem. For the neck to be in single coil, the wires 2 and 3 should both be routed to ground, right? But I cannot see how the wire 3 would ever get that. When the BT is pulled it gets routed to NT but then when it is pulled it simply floats?
    Could someone verify this? I have already an idea how to fix this, but it is a pain to modify now that everything is in place.

    thx, o-p

    You talk about the neck pu, but then name the wires 2 and 3 which refer to the bridge pickup. So I guess you intended talking about the bridge pickup. For the bridge pickup being in single coil mode only wire 2 must be connected to the ground. Wire 3 connects to the second coil which is shunted (both sides hanging from hot).
    Use your neck tone switch to get the difference between the single coil and the dual sound. If there isn't any, there must be a problem with your wiring. To sort it out first check the hum (move the guitar close to a lamp ora computer). If there isn't any, you're in dual mode, if there is some, you're in single coil mode. That can help to find the problem.

    I hope you're still having fun with your Twenty Dual. All the best!

  9. #44
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by giangui View Post
    the second (neck) volume has no function at all only when splitted to serial mod of course while in this case (splitted to serial) the second (neck) tone works as a treble booster (from 10 to 0 at 0 you get the clearest sound)

    BORSANOVA YOU ARE A GENIUS!
    Borsanova sei un genio

    Giangui
    You got it Giangui. Thank you.

    People should distinguish between dual sound (only on the bridge pickup alone) and broadbucker or 1 1/2 sound (with both pickups in series and the treble booster on the neck tone turned to zero). The Twenty Dual master has both of them.

  10. #45
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    Just for fun what you do with additional switches?

    Hi there,

    I was wondering what your thoughts are about this new pickup ring from Seymour Duncan in relation to this thread regarding the enhanced Jimmy Page wiring approach.

    I'd Love to use the RS Vintage Electronics vol & tone pots they developed with CTS and I'm not sure if they offer a push pull pot that has the tapper control.

    I then saw this and thought I might be able to get a lot of the options of of tow of these rings.

    Triple Shot - Triple Shot Switching Mounting Ring - Seymour Duncan/Basslines

    But something is telling me that in addition to these two switches that your wiring might not be possible.

    So here are my questions:

    1) Could this new 22 option wiring approach be accomplished with these rings without any push pull pots?

    2) If not what at a minimum would be needed in addition?

    3) If Yes, (just for fun) what else would you do with any additional Push Pull pots?

    Thanks,

    Ralph C

    Great Thread!

  11. #46
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    Under Pick Gaurd switches

    Quote Originally Posted by Borsanova View Post
    Here are my last upgrades to the Les Paul Jimmy Page design. Take notice that I have introduced several improvements and that there are now two different versions of this guitar with differing use of the volume and tone controls in series mode.
    I'm assuming the diagram has a switch on thelower left outside the main area to be the one under the pick gaurd?

    I've modified a Douglas 650N Semi-Hollow using two Push Push tone knobs, to split the coils. I have yet to try this wiring but am really looking forward to it.

  12. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borsanova View Post
    Thanks for your comment. I'm sorry that my post came late for your mod. I guess we all have to make our experiences and it is a good idea not to start with your main axe. I did my first mod on my red Ibanez 345 and started regretting my errors after learning all about the benefits of my Les Paul JP 20-Dual. I took me over a year and another mod (on my DeArmond T-400), before realizing that I had in fact 42 different sounds at hand, some of which completely unknown to the guitar world.
    Now I'm seriously considering rewiring my 345 (which has the serial wiring with the neck first and the bridge in second position), but unfortunately working inside a semi-acoustic is actually one of the hardest jobs you can imagine.

    In the following I've posted a few arguments why my design is so much better than Jimmy original:

    Here is my improved version of Jimmy Page's Les Paul. I call it the Les Paul Twenty-Dual.

    It has 22 different sounds, one more than Jimmy's, since it includes also a dual sound for the bridge pickup (in my case a Duncan JB) with parallel wiring for both coils instead of serial.

    Moreover I eliminated the muted positions on Gibson's reissue and I moved the push/pull controls to a more rational configuration (Jimmy's original has the coil tap switches on the volume controls). On my guitar they are moved to the tone pots while the switches on the volume pots control serial and out-of-phase switching:

    Here is what the four push-pull pots do:

    The bridge volume control switches both pickups in serial mode, but only when the bridge pickup is selected. With the pickup selector in the middle or on the neck you only hear the neck pu.

    The neck volume control switches the neck pu out of phase. It only works with both pickups selected, that is with the pickup selector in the middle position or, when serial mode is selected, with the pickup selector in the bridge position.

    The bridge tone control switches the bridge pickup from serial humbucker to parallel (Dual sound).

    The neck tone control switches the neck pickup to single coil and, when the bridge tone control is pulled, it also switches the bridge pickup to single coil.


    Why I recombined the push/pull pots?

    I think my configuration is much more rational, because it puts each switch exactly where you would search and eventually miss it on a standard guitar. Here are my arguments for each new combination.

    Tone controls and coil tap:
    Usually guitarists use their tone controls to muffle their sound and that's what they do best. But almost as often you touch the same controls hoping to find some space for brightening your sound. How many times have you been frustrated, finding that the tone control was already at ten? On my Les Paul you have the solution immediately at hands: just pull your switch for dual sound or coil tap and the sound will become brighter.

    Bridge volume and serial:
    Serial wiring of two pickups brings the highest volume and distortion. Usually you need it when you're playing solo, that is you're already playing your bridge pickup and often you need more volume to come up against the other instruments. When you reach down to the volume knob and find you're already at ten, a little pull can now provide the ultimate boost you were looking for.

    Neck volume and out-of-phase:
    The out-of-phase switch should in any case be combined with a volume control, because only the latter permit to control the equilibrium between the two signals. By differentiating the volume of each pickup you can mix the signals and control how much of the lower frequencies will be cancelled. Often you will find that you pull your out-of-phase switch and that your sounds becomes much thinner than you expected. In this case you got your fingers already where it counts. Simply reduce your neck volume from ten to eight and you'll hear how your sound becomes thicker again.

    Reassuming in the simplest manner, my guitar has one push/pull switch that makes the sound fatter (the bridge volume) and three push/pull switches that make it thinner. This makes it really easy to handle and if you remember these main rules it is almost impossible to get lost between the switching possibilities (which is not so improbable on many modded Stratocasters or on a Brian May Red Special).


    How I got to my Twenty-Dual wiring?

    I had already designed my 21 mode wiring scheme, when I decided to try and change the bridge pickup mod from single coil to parallel (Dual sound). It is not too difficult and when I finished it, I started to study hum-cancelling effects of the combined modes. So I realized that it wasn't very smart to combine a parallel humbucker with a single coil, since this would never be hum-cancelling. Then my eyes fell on the neck tone pot which had still an unused pole and I thought I could use this to switch the bridge pickup to single coil when combined with the neck single coil. That's it.

    Now I got 16 two-pickup combinations (like Jimmy's), and six one-pickup modes (one more than Jimmy):

    neck humbucker
    neck adjustable coil
    neck stud coil
    bridge adjustable coil
    bridge parallel coils (dual sound)
    bridge humbucker

    The pickup wirings in combination are always:

    parallel in phase
    parallel out of phase
    serial in phase
    serial out of phase

    all four with four pickup combinations:

    both humbuckers
    neck single coil and bridge humbucker
    neck humbucker and bridge dual (or parallel) coils
    both single coils

    If you do it right, three of these combinations will always be hum-cancelling and only the second one is not. That makes up for a total of 15 hum-cancelling sounds and only 7 that aren't, a much better ratio than on Jimmy's guitar which has only 10 hum-cancelling sounds.


    This sound like the mod I want, great job! This is my first time doing this type setup. What materials would I need for a Les Paul? I know 4 DPDT long shaft pots, but the rest I'm not sure on.

  13. #48
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    This is the Hungarian guitarist Tom Szilagyi describing his modded guitar "Excalibur" with the Twenty-Dual wiring.
    He used it to record the album "Decline" with his band Submareen. Have a look:
    The Excalibur | Submareen

  14. #49
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    I have a guitar that has 3 controls, neck volume, bridge volume, and tone, and I would like to apply this mod to my guitar.

    Since this mod is for a guitar that has 4 controls, I am hoping that someone will provide a modified version of this mod for me.

    Thanks
    -Bryan

  15. #50
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    Two volume one tone wiring.

    Quote Originally Posted by tbryanh View Post
    I have a guitar that has 3 controls, neck volume, bridge volume, and tone, and I would like to apply this mod to my guitar.

    Since this mod is for a guitar that has 4 controls, I am hoping that someone will provide a modified version of this mod for me.

    Thanks
    Copy the wiring of the guitar you have that is wired this way or google Gibson Flying V wiring.

  16. #51
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    Part Numbers?

    Does anybody have part numbers for the potentiomers and any other parts needed for this mod?

    How about some Mouser part numbers, etc.?
    -Bryan

  17. #52
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    Hi All,
    Another newby.
    Loved this thread, is there any way that I could do the same type mod into 1 volume 1 tone both push pull pots, and using the new type double wafer mega lever switch, also mini togles if needed. I would be so greatful if someone could post a diagram of this or point me to a site wher this has been done.

    Thanks Martin

  18. #53
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    Hello,
    New to this forum.
    Does anyone have the latest diagram/schematic for the Twenty Dual?
    Been searching the internet and have found different layouts from 2004 to 2010.
    Thanks, Tim

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