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Thread: Dearmond Rhythm Chief 1100

  1. #1
    Supporting Member belwar's Avatar
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    Dearmond Rhythm Chief 1100

    Well I finally took delivery of a model 1100 rhythm chief and im in the process of sarting to replicate it. this is going to take forever, but I think its a worthwhile project. haven't started taking it apart yet as I need a good guitar to hear it on first and take a whole shitload of sound samples. however, is there anything that anyone here would like to know about it?I've got good calipers, gauss meter, dmm, and an LCR meter.

    b.

  2. #2
    Pickup Maker David Schwab's Avatar
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    Oh that's cool!

    I'd like to know everything about it! I had one of those once, but I broke it taking a look inside back when I wasn't able to repair it.

    Those even sound nice on a solid body bass! I had it on my Ric at the bridge position.

    Take lots of pictures too!
    It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. Albert Einstein

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  3. #3
    Supporting Member JGundry's Avatar
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    Well the first thing you will need to do is hand wind your copy. Right?
    They don't make them like they used to... We do.
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    Senior Member madialex's Avatar
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    Jason Lollar knows loads about them, in case you need to know anything you cant figure out on your own. I'm sure he would be glad to help you out. His website says he isn't rewinding or repairing them any longer though, i'm guessing they must be a pain in the ass.

    Sorry, I mis-read the post- I was thinking monkey on a stick Pickup--DUH....

  5. #5
    Pickup Maker David Schwab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madialex View Post
    His website says he isn't rewinding or repairing them any longer though, i'm guessing they must be a pain in the ass.
    If I'm not mistaken, either the magnets are different sizes, and or the wire is partly wound around like 4 of them, and then the other 2 are added and the coil is continued.

    I think it's this model that does that, but I might be wrong.
    It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. Albert Einstein

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    Supporting Member belwar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGundry View Post
    Well the first thing you will need to do is hand wind your copy. Right?
    Yeeeahh.. Thats right.

    Hand wound!

    I wonder if it was wound by #1760 or#1860 .. #1860 was one of the last two ever made.

  7. #7
    Old Timer Possum's Avatar
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    ....

    Actually they may have been hand wound. When I was in contact with that guy who was writing a book on Harry DeArmond he sent me pictures of his shop tools his wife still had, the winder was dead simple, not autowinder. It would be kinda hard to tell if they were machine wound or not since the coil heights are real thin, wouldn't be much noticeable difference between a hand wind and an old mechanical autowinder.....
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  8. #8
    Supporting Member JGundry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Possum View Post
    Actually they may have been hand wound. When I was in contact with that guy who was writing a book on Harry DeArmond he sent me pictures of his shop tools his wife still had, the winder was dead simple, not autowinder. It would be kinda hard to tell if they were machine wound or not since the coil heights are real thin, wouldn't be much noticeable difference between a hand wind and an old mechanical autowinder.....
    I heard Harry DeArmond had several sons that did the pickup winding for him. But it was confusing because he named a son or I mean each son Lee. Harry DeArmond had to find a solution. So being such a gear head Harry decided to classify each son. The first son became Lee, son, a. But this was just awkward so Harry gave them each a serial number to make it simple, starting with 102. This worked and made Harry happy. But after Harry listened to the pickups his Lee sons made Harry wondered if he would have been better off having no sons at all? Harry wondered if he should have continued to use his hands for the rest of his life and just skipped having sons? But in the end Harry put his hand to better use and decided that his Lee sons 102 .... were in fact making wonderful sounding pickups. Harry and his very grateful and relieved wife lived happily ever after. At least that's the way I heard it.
    They don't make them like they used to... We do.
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  9. #9
    Supporting Member belwar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Possum View Post
    Actually they may have been hand wound. When I was in contact with that guy who was writing a book on Harry DeArmond he sent me pictures of his shop tools his wife still had, the winder was dead simple, not autowinder. It would be kinda hard to tell if they were machine wound or not since the coil heights are real thin, wouldn't be much noticeable difference between a hand wind and an old mechanical autowinder.....
    That would be for prototypes and one offs. Remember that most of the pickups made by DeArmond were actually produced by Rowe Industries. The Key then is to know the winders that Rowe Industries used .. Even Rowe Industries doesnt know anymore. They sold (or scrapped) their 50's winders when they moved out of Toledo.

    B.

  10. #10
    Pickup Maker David Schwab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGundry View Post
    I heard Harry DeArmond had several sons...
    Ooh that was a reach and a half!
    It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. Albert Einstein

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    DeArmond 1000 Rythm Chief

    Quote Originally Posted by belwar View Post
    Well I finally took delivery of a model 1100 rhythm chief and im in the process of sarting to replicate it. this is going to take forever, but I think its a worthwhile project. haven't started taking it apart yet as I need a good guitar to hear it on first and take a whole shitload of sound samples. however, is there anything that anyone here would like to know about it?I've got good calipers, gauss meter, dmm, and an LCR meter.

    b.
    Belwar. I have a 1000 Rhythm Chief that had no rhythm switch, I should have taken note of the capacitor that makes it non rhythm in my latest eBay sale. I need to know what I am missing to make the rhythm switch work. I am MS64RED on eBay and sell tons of the screw-on cables with many varieties of combination's of lengths and different connectors. Please let me know what the schematics are for the 1000.......Mitch

  12. #12
    Supporting Member belwar's Avatar
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    confused

    Are you looking for just the cap value, or more info on the control box? There are two caps inside the control box 0.047 +/- 20% 200v 900 (Not sure what the 900 means). The second cap is marked RMC .0015 20% Z5U

    Here is a picture for you...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails control-box-1100.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by belwar View Post
    Are you looking for just the cap value, or more info on the control box? There are two caps inside the control box 0.047 +/- 20% 200v 900 (Not sure what the 900 means). The second cap is marked RMC .0015 20% Z5U

    Here is a picture for you...

    I appreciate the photo, but, I need to follow the continuity path as per what is connected to what. I know the volume and tone connections, basic, I don't have a schematic to follow. The picture would work if I could see every connection. What does the switch connect to? and Where do the caps connect?....Like I said, if I could see the complete inner works I would be done with mu little project.....Mitch

  14. #14
    Pickup Maker David Schwab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MS64RED View Post
    I appreciate the photo, but, I need to follow the continuity path as per what is connected to what. I know the volume and tone connections, basic, I don't have a schematic to follow.
    The switch puts the .0015 cap in series with the pickup for reduced low end.
    It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. Albert Einstein

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    Supporting Member StarryNight's Avatar
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    I'm dreaming one day of making an archtop (I even have the wood ready to go) and would love to know the specs for the Rhythm Chief. Would it be too much to ask for some photos and/or readings, wire guage etc.?

  16. #16
    Supporting Member belwar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarryNight View Post
    I'm dreaming one day of making an archtop (I even have the wood ready to go) and would love to know the specs for the Rhythm Chief. Would it be too much to ask for some photos and/or readings, wire guage etc.?
    http://music-electronics-forum.com/p...ef-1100-a.html

    How could I say no to someone from Victoria?! I grew up there! I sure miss haultain fish n chips.. Though its not as good as it used to be. I recently had fish and chips last time I was in vic at a place next to Art's Bakery.. I just cant remember the name. I've spend the last year trying to duplicate thier batter.. I think i've got it now.

    I'll snap some pics for you later and post them in the above thread.

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    DeArmond Vol. Tone Module.

    What is the schematic diagram of the inner workings of the 1100 and 1000 control modules on the DeArmonds. What is hooked up to the the switch and directly to the output . RE: the 0015 and 047, where are they connected, exactly. I am using a spdt mini toggle, what goes where? What is directly connected to the volume, what is the switch adding? I know .047, .0015, which goes where, switched, direct. Hot goes to? Can anyone explain the complete schematics?...Thanks MS64RED from eBay.

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    pot values

    Hi,
    I am rebuilding a rhythm chief control box and am in the same position as you but do not know which pot is volume and which is the tone. From the picture that have already been kindly posted I can work out the rest. Does anyone know which is which?

    Cheers
    Pedrometer

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    I'm going to take a wild guess and say that the one at the top with the tone cap soldered to it is the tone pot.

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    Tone pot value

    The one with the tone pot cap soldered to it is indeed the tone pot. I was wondering what the value is. I have a 1M pot not exactly Linear or Log and a 250K pot not exactly Linear or Log. Which is tone and which is volume?

    Pedrometer

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    Rhythm Chief volume pot

    Hi,
    Does anyone know the value of a Rhythm Chief Volume pot.
    Thanks
    Pedrons

  22. #22
    Old Timer Possum's Avatar
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    ...

    Back to the winding method, don't forget that hand winding was common in large factories in the earlier years, I repaired a monkey on a stick pickup a long time ago and the wind in it was very sloppy, not machine looking at all. I'm not sure when the 1100 was manufactured, somewhere I think I have the patent, or actually it may one of the ones I could never find. The closest patent is for the mandolin version. I think there is also an 1100 pole piece version thats later.

    BTW here is video from my pickup factory, I have a VERY strict dress code:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ua7clPBvg8"]YouTube- Coil Winding Section E, Westinghouse Works[/ame]

    Below is a photo taken by one of my spies of girls winding at Jon's garage :-)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1899_hallst2.jpg  
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  23. #23
    Supporting Member belwar's Avatar
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    The Rowe made DeArmonds were wound on Leesona 102's. I have the Leesona serial number records from 1959 on, and the second page of serial numbers has the first of many Leesona 102's for Rowe. Im working on getting the serial number records prior to 59.

  24. #24
    Old Timer Possum's Avatar
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    ...

    very loose tension
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  25. #25
    Pickup Maker David Schwab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Possum View Post
    BTW here is video from my pickup factory, I have a VERY strict dress code...
    At 1:08 you can see Dave inspecting the winders.
    It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. Albert Einstein

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    Old Timer Possum's Avatar
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    ...

    We' re making pickups with 2 gauge wire, they sound very hi-fi
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    tone pot volume pot values

    Does anybody know anything about the values of either the Tone pot or the volume pot of the Rhythm Chief control box?

    Thanks

  28. #28
    Pickup Maker David Schwab's Avatar
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    I seem to remember the volume pot being 1Meg.
    It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. Albert Einstein

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    Thanks

    Hi David,
    Thanks for that. That's what I was guessing but needed a bit of confirmation before I assemble it all according to the photos. I'll post the circuit after it all works satisfactorily.
    Cheers
    Peter

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    I have one brand new for sale

    Anyone interested?

  31. #31
    Supporting Member belwar's Avatar
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    The volume read 1.125MOhm
    The tone read 337.4KOhm

    So likely 1m and 300k.

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    volume tone values

    Hi,
    Thanks for the information. It is very kind of you. I will post the circuit when I've drawn it out after I know it all works.
    Cheers
    Peter

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    I've got a couple of the vol/tone housings laying about- both measure about 280K for the tone pots and 1M(and change) for the volume. A slightly worn 250K could read from 280 up to 350K.

    There are two different Manufacturers of pots represented. The first housing has: Tone R - 20 1376025, Vol R - 15 1376047. Safe to say this housing is from 1960 w/CTS pots. The cap is a yellow cylindrical film type. Writing is rubbed off

    The second housing has: Tone R - 20 235632, Vol R - 15 1377225. This one has had the vol changed at some point. The 235 prefix pot (Mallory?) is physically smaller at 1/2 " diameter. The cap is a .1 100V IFC? green chiclet.

    I'm guessing that R-15 and R-20 were house numbers that Rowe had stamped onto the pots no matter who the manufacturer was. The 235 pot is likely from '66.

    Hey, hope someone who cares finds this info useful.

    ....and I'm guessing that the batter recipe from Art's is HAND mixed?
    couldn't resist - I KEEED!

  34. #34
    Pickup Maker David Schwab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweetfinger View Post
    A slightly worn 250K could read from 280 up to 350K.
    Doesn't even matter if it's worn. It's within the rated tolerance. They never read what their value is.
    It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. Albert Einstein

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    DeArmond contol box

    Peter did you ever get the circuit drawn and working?

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