Stock 5E3 B+ Voltage

[straycat]

What is the B+ voltage of an original 5E3 Deluxe amp?

[KingCameron]

You want to get somewhere between 330-370VDC, with ~124 at the wall.

The original amps were built to run on 117 at the wall, so you will have higher B+, than normal, if you are running an original transformer

However, I have studied this quite a bit recently and I can assure you that B+ voltage that is higher than 370VDC will result in distortion at all volume settings.

[straycat]

So which Mercury Magnets 120 volt power transformer should I purchase ? I would like to build a 5E3 to stock specs and have it perform like an original Deluxe.


Mercury Magnets Power Tranformers

FTDP Tweed -- stock B+ -- 380-0-380 unloaded -- #6452

or

FTDP-350 Tweed -- lower B+ -- 350-0-350 unloaded

[KingCameron]

I do not suggest the Tone Clone (380-0-380)

I suggest something lower.
I have an Axiom 350 (350-0-350) which is still giving me a 362V B+. This is the maximum value that I would suggest..still a little hot, but much better than the 392V B+ I was getting from the Tone Clone..
(Bruce from Mission Amps says they need to be lower than 370VDC, I agree)

I might suggest the Axiom 330...I haven't tried it, but I am willing to bet it would be a great tranny....most likely getting a B+ at 340-350V...right where you need to be! (I am thinking of trying one of these next)

I am still a student of the transformers that are available today. I have heard that the Heyboers are really nice. Their Deluxe PT is a 350V...so that should give you a sign as to where you should be with the voltage. Plus, it is supposed to be paper-wound, like the originals...

I have also heard of people using the Hammond 270 series trannys... I have personally worked on one Deluxe-type amp that used a 272BX (sold as a 300-0-300, was actually 350-0-350) which had the milky sweet Deluxe tone, sooooo I know this will work too and costs less. The problem with the Hammonds is that they don't mount (fit) well in the reproduction chassis, that most offer....a little rigging is required.

[straycat]

What kind of rectifier tube are you useing? Soviet or NOS?

Thanks for your replies KC!

[KingCameron]

Howdy StrayCat,

I have tried everything from Sovtek 5Y3s to a variety of NOS 5Y3s..

As an example:
In a 5E3, wired totally stock, with a MM Tone Clone (392VDC B+)....I increased the power resistors to lower the pre-amp power buss to 250V. This put my 12AY7 at 115/side...ect

The least conductive 5Y3 I could find, in my collection, was a French-made RT with (600micro ohm transconductance), other NOS tubes I found were closer to the 900 micro ohm range,

This tube only lowered the B+ by ~10V! (this amp was still way to hot)

Thats right....the NOS rectifiers can help, but not very much...you have to have a lower B+ to begin with...the rectifier can't do it alone

[tubeswell]

PT
HT winding 325-0-325 anything between 100mA and 150mA (higher if you want to put in 6L6s)
Fil 6.3V 2A (3A if you want 6L6s)
Rectifier 5V 2A

OT
Push Pull 8k - 8R (or get multiple secondary taps so you can run 6L6s at ~4k)

For 6V6s anything between 340 and 360 on the plates sounds nice with a single bypassed 250R 5W or 10W cathode resistor

[Diablo]

I have no experience with a 5E3, but Mercury Mag lists the following choices for PT voltage:
380 - 0 - 380
350 - 0 - 350
335 - 0 - 335
290 - 0 - 290

The Weber 25130 PT shows 340 - 0 - 340 volts, and is about half the cost of the MM.

I couldn't find voltages for the Heyboer PT, but Weber sells these too for about $60.

[KingCameron]

You can fine the Heyboer at:
http://www.mojomusicalsupply.com/

Don't know the voltages on this one, but its $105 bones for the Pt and $67 for the OT...


If you go MM, I would choose the Axiom 330-0-330, or the 290..

Are you gonna want to interchange 6L6s in your 5E3, or are you gonna stay with 6V6s?

[straycat]

I am just a wanabe guitar player and only practice at home.I have built three amps already. My last build was a Marshall 50 watt 1986 bass circuit plexi.Extremely loud and does not really sound good at lower volumes. Turn it up and it sounds great.

I want to build a 5e3 because of the lower wattage(I know 22 watts is still loud) and to get more of a Fender vibe.I will be useing the 6V6's and sticking with the stock circuit for the most part.

I am leaning towards the Mercury Magnet 335-0-335 because I think it will get me close to the stock voltages.The 350-0-350 that you used was really close in voltages just a tad high so that is why I think the 335 will work.

Weber sells both Mercury and Heyboer. The heyboer do not show their voltages. I emailed Heyboer directly for a price and specs but have not heard back from them.

Thanks for the info KC!!

[KingCameron]

You got the right ideas here...
Lemme know how it turns out

[cminor9]

I am not a big believer in "boutique" parts. Of course, I am just Yet Another guy with an opinion, but please consider that Fender wasn't putting super expensive transformers (or other parts) in their amps. You could probably do just as well with a $60 Hammond PT and a $30 hammond OT. Are you sure paying twice that is really worth the cost?

Anyhow, that's my 2 cents, just trying to save you way more than 2 cents.

[KingCameron]

Agreed...Electrically they are the same, but there are some pros and cons

Pros: You can work with MM to get what you want, they have a satisfaction gaurantee that the stand behind...trust me I've tested it.

If you are wanting to keep a vintage look, the MM trannies will fit with your old end-bells....all your doing is replacing the iron in the middle.

If you get ,months to years, down the road and your trannie craps out....MM will fix it for you.

Its American made...I can't imagine putting foreign stuff in my Hand-made American amps..(where I can help it) Fender didn't use foreign junk in their amps either....I mean cummmon people...support the movement, buy from othe American amp junkies...and we'll all win!

Cons:
Cost is higher, until you buy 5 peices from MM, then it gets reasonable....If you need lower cost here, buy one from me, or another dealer...then they cost about the same as a Hammond

Know what you need....MM Tone Clones can be deceiving...make sure it is an exact replacement for what you want.

[straycat]

I am going to get my transformers from Bruce Collins of Mission amps. He is out of them right now and is waiting for a shipment to arrive at the end of this month.

http://www.missionamps.com/transformers.shtml

I have a custom head chassis on order from ceritone. I ordered an aluminum 5E3 chassis with no paint/powder coating.No holes drilled for the output transfromer/choke or the circuit board.

[Ringwraith]

I'd hardly say Hammond is "foreign junk"??

Sean

[Diablo]

I heard a rumor that MM doesn't use Kraft paper as an insulator in their transformers - they use $20 bills......

I'm all for buying American, but these guys need to drop their prices about 40% to be competitive with other American transformers. The largest cost in a transformer is the steel and the copper, and these materials are just as inexpensive in the US as overseas. I work for a company that sells steel for transformers and motors. I've also toured transformer factories, and understand the build process.

[KingCameron]

Yup, go with Bruce...he's helped me many times....a good dude in my book

[KingCameron]

Originally Posted by Diablo

I heard a rumor that MM doesn't use Kraft paper as an insulator in their transformers - they use $20 bills......

I'm all for buying American, but these guys need to drop their prices about 40% to be competitive with other American transformers. The largest cost in a transformer is the steel and the copper, and these materials are just as inexpensive in the US as overseas. I work for a company that sells steel for transformers and motors. I've also toured transformer factories, and understand the build process.

I know I'm starting to sound like an MM sales guy, but....
They are only expensive if you buy directly from them, in small amounts.

If you want 40% off, go to ebay...or contact a builder like me, who has bought over 10 units from them. We get a big discount for buying lots of items from them and can pass along the savings.
I think MM has tried to structure their ASPs this way to encourage a network of amp guys, and limit the small time buyers coming directly to them....it does not mean all their stuff is expensive, it means you have to be smart about how you buy from them.

Plus, as far as I'm concerned, building amps is an art form...do it right, don't just make it work...this way 40 years from now, some guys will be sitting around figuring out how to repair our old amps

[mbratch]

I find the Sovtek 5Y3 to be way higher in voltage versus any vintage 5Y3.

I've compared the Sovtek with vintage Tung-Sol and Ken-Rad 5Y3 rectifiers and with 3 different power tube sets (new JJs and a couple of vintage sets). The B+ voltage generated by the Sovtek 5Y3 measured consistently at ~40V higher than the other 5Y3's.

I've checked eBay for MM Deluxe PT's and the only ones I've seen so far have all been the FTDP model, which is the 380-0-380.

I have the Mojo MOJO756 PT. The voltages are 384-0-384. With that PT and a vintage 5Y3 all in the Mojo 5E3 kit, I'm getting B+ voltages of around 360 to 365V. Using the Sovtek 5Y3, I'm getting 400 to 405V. My wall voltage is 120VAC.

[Five_E35]

A number of people have said the Sovtek 5Y3 acts more like a 5V4 or even a weak 5AR4. Russian rectifier tubes also don't have a very good track record for reliability, maybe that's why Fender included the bomb-proof rectifier diodes in the RI? Many Russian & eastern block tubes aren't really what they say they are. Some people call the JJ 6V6 a 6VL6 and their EL84 will not physically fit in a vintage AC30. The Sovtek 5881 appears to be the same tube as the tube they sell as 7027a, with a different base & pinout. It takes abuse like no real 5881, so it's probably is closer to a 7027a. The common Sovtek 12AX7WA & WB is closer to a NOS 5751 than a real 12AX7WA.

A 40V difference is about what I get in my 5E3 going from a JAN Sylvania 5Y3WGT & 6V6GTA's(~350-360v) and a small bottle GE 'copper stripe' 5AR4 & NOS 5881's(~395v). There is a significant difference in idle current & I'd guess the 5AR4 with 6V6's would go another 10 volts higher, but I'm not about to try that with the GTA's.

The Tube World web site has good pictures of many NOS tubes that can make identifying relabeled NOS tubes like the Ken-Rad 5Y3 easier. Might be an RCA.

https://www.tubeworld.com/index_high.htm

[Ringwraith]

Is the Mesa Boogie 5Y3 a re-branded Sovtek??
I just scored a bunch of old 5Y3's at a Hamfest & they all produce the same voltage as the Mesa Boogie.

Sean

[mbratch]

I've read that JJ 6V6S tubes are more 6L6-like, but more in terms of sound perhaps. They also spec at a max plate dissipation of 14 watts whereas some modern 6V6's I've looked at spec at 12 watts. I've used them in my 6V6 amps and really like them even compared to NOS 6V6s. I've also used JJ GZ34 (5AR4) tubes without any odd voltages compared to other 5AR4s. I have found JJs all areound to be quite reliable.

Sovtek tubes are a different story, especially the 5Y3 and 6L6's. My experience with their pre-amp tubes has been OK, but I have had nothing but trouble with Sovtek 6L6's and the 5Y3's. Often the 6L6's have arc'ed and blown fuses. Or, in the case of the 5Y3, make a rattling/jingling noise (in addition to producing incorrect voltages).

I generally don't hesitate to buy a new JJ, but I stay away from Sovteks. YMMV.

I apologize, I'm going OT on the OP.

For proper B+ in a 5E3, I would stay away from Sovtek 5Y3's unless your components are designed to accommodate the overage in voltage compared to other 5Y3's.

[MWJB]

The JJs sound to me like a more "solid" 6V6, not really like a 6L6. After all the JJ6L6 sounds different to most other 6L6s, but it still sounds like 6L6.

6V6GT have been rated at 14W for the better part of the last 50yrs.

"Sovtek" tubes are made in the Reflector, Saratov factory...like EH, RI Tung Sol, GT(R), the new Svetlana (as opposed to SED) etc.

[Five_E35]

There was a small bottle tube Sovtek sold as a 6L6GC that couldn't handle what their 5881 could. Grove Tubes used to sell that tube as a 6V6HD, with the note that it drew more filament current than a real 6V6.

JJ's are reliable and hopefully the new 5AR4 wil be too. FWIW, Victoria is now shipping the 20112 5E3 clone with a JJ 5AR4 and JJ 6V6GT's and call it a 20 watt amp in that configuration. The tube chart now says 5AR4 or 5Y3. I don't know if they've made other circuit changes, such as a larger cathode resistor.

[mbratch]

Originally Posted by MWJB

6V6GT have been rated at 14W for the better part of the last 50yrs.

Most of the data sheets I can find indicate 12W and max plate voltage of 350VDC. Exceptions are the RCA 6V6GTA and the JJ 6V6S.

I haven't found a data sheet for the re-issue Tung-Sol 6V6GT, but I had read in a thread here on the M.E.F. regarding a reply from New Sensor when asked about the re-issue Tung-Sol 6V6GT:

"The Tung-Sol 6V6GT has a maximum plate voltage of 475 volts. It has a plate dissipation of 12 watts. This tube was designed to be used in high plate volt amps such as the Fender Deluxe Reverb."

[MWJB]

The GE 6V6GT/6V6GTA data sheets in your link show 14W max plate dissipation.

I knew that the Russian Reflector has current issues, they'll take mid 400's voltage-wise, but Myles Rose advised me to stay around 19mA in BF Deluxe style amp. Has anyone ever seen figs for the Chines 6V6s.

Yes, they all show 350v max plate dissipation (except for the current production high voltage types) but were often successfully run in amps at way over this. Power tubes are often run at higher voltages that data sheets recommend in popular guitar amps.

In reality, a 6V6 with a real 12W limit would struggle to find a place to live, as even many vintage, cathode biased PP amps run them harder than this.

[mbratch]

Originally Posted by MWJB

The GE 6V6GT/6V6GTA data sheets in your link show 14W max plate dissipation.

Yes, sorry. I was looking at the class A dissipation instead of the max.

Do you have any specs on the new Tung Sol 6V6GT? I'm still curious about that one, being new production. The information I have (12 watts) is second hand.

[MWJB]

Data sheets on Reflector tubes are rare, SED had some but I don't know how well I trust them, don't think they offer a 6V6 anyway.

I would think that the TS would be much the same, dissipation-wise, as the other Reflector made brands (EH etc), but that's an assumption (which I guess I shouldn't really do).

Fender fit the EH to their 5E3 57 Deluxe and I know of another guy who fits Reflector 6V6s to his cathode biased builds & they hold up fine at 430v (uncorrected) at the plate & around 30mA. So if they are just 12W, they can certainly hold up at 12W all day long...which may be the case, or they'll take a bit more. Sorry, more Q's than answers but I reckon the anecdotal evidence tells you more than a data sheet anyway.

[screamingbirdamps]

my origional gave me an under load voltage of 330volts i have built and repaired mojo kits and found their b+ very high, to high lots of distortion and not good.The later black and silver deluxes push the b+ up to 430-450 but thats a different amp design.also measured trannys (origionals)were as follows 5e3 8k a-a later 763 circit 6.6k a-a hope this helps.