Ugly Solder Joints

[kevinT]

...wanted to get folks' opinions/tips/suggestions/solutions/reactions...... And I can't be the only person that has this happen...this is a rambling two-part question/survey...

How do you manage your solder joints when/if you discover, after you have soldered on a cover, that the cover is scratched or damaged and you have to replace it... and resoldering a new cover on the pickup begins to make the joints on the baseplate look less than perfect . ...I have tried the solder sucker, and desoldering braid to remove excess solder but I don't think they work that well and still don't tidy up nicely. The joints on the baseplate can start looking a bit funky. I also don't cut the joints like some folks (which would probably help) ...I use the razor blade technique and reheat the solder joints to remove the cover and I re-attach with a little more solder.

In rare instances I have had to replace a cover twice because of discovering damage ...by this time the joints are beginning to look a little unwildly. I don't want to trash the pickup because it's fine and transferring everything over to a new baseplate/harness is a real headache and a time eater..but the solder joints appear less than perfect by my standards. The pickup is fine and the replacement cover is fine...but the solder joints are a little blobby.

First, do you have any suggestions that would help?

Second, let's say you're fillling an order for a customer, what would you do if you had a pickup with less then perfect solder joints? Pick one answer...

a. Not worry about it if the joints look a little blobby because some old Gibson pickups and even PAFs had blobby joints.

b. Trash the pickup and start all over again because you're afraid that your customers will think less of you and talk about you like a dog on the forums.

c. Transfer everything over to a new harness which will put you further behind schedule and cause your backlog of customers to damn you to hell....

d. Other_________

[David King]

d.) Try a utectic solder?

[Spence]

I know what you mean Kevin. The stupid thing is that people never gave a shit about the baseplate in the good old days.

But you should be able to retouch those joints and make them look better by adding a little more solder if needs be.
I use a 100 Watt soldering iron too so it gets hot fast. I can literally hold the baseplate while soldering without burning myself. That's how quick it is.

[Possum]

The beauty of the razor blade method is you can get in and out twice and not mess it up. But yeah it happens, the solder flows towards the middle of baseplate, oh shit.... I am perfectionist that way too. Usually I'll just spread both joints out bigger if it happens so they are both the same. I think a hotter iron is the best thing to use, I use 60 watt irons but they're not all the same heat range, I think hotter is better in the long run. Pointed tip too....

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

Like Spence said - if you have enough heat, you can do a really clean job. I've done cover swaps several times and had it looking untouched each time. Get yourself a nice heavy wick, and go to it. I use an 80w iron with a tip that's about 1/2" wide. Needless to say, it ONLY gets used for the cover/baseplate joint! The wide tip also means you don't need to move it around to spread the heat, which will mean you don't get that wavy quality to the solder. When resoldering, I'll cut off a bunch of solder and double or triple it up so that it goes on much heavier and faster, that saves some time so I'm spending less time with the iron pressed to the baseplate.

That is pretty much my rule of thumb for all kinds of soldering... you shouldn't have to keep the iron to the piece longer than a couple seconds ever, or else you might damage the work, or at least get funny looking joints. I find it easier to work with too much heat than with not enough.

I'm not sure just how neat you want the solder joints to look, but when I do it this way, they tend to be slightly neater than you typically see on Gibson, Duncan, etc.

Spence, do you find you have to use the iron a bit cooler to keep it from burning the rosin? If I plug mine in and leave it plugged in too long it just burns the rosin and it all turns black very fast. I have to unplug it and replug it to get the right temperature.

[Down Time]

I use a 45 watt Weller iron with a large chisel tip. I then heat the joint and quickly slide a single edged razor blade between the cover and the frame. The solder will not stick to the razor blade. Once the cover is removed its easier to clean the solder off the frame if needed. You can use a desoldering bulb first to remove an unusual large amount of solder, then proceed to the single edge razor. This method has always worked fine for me.

[SkinnyWire]

Remove the cover, then apply flux the solder remaining on the cover and frame and flow the solder into a thin/smooth layer on both the inside of the cover and on the frame (you might be able to remove a bit more solder with the soldapultz once the cover is removed). Put the cover back on and now you have a well tinned surface for a neat joint.

[RedHouse]

Having one of those big sheet-metal type soldering irons helps. It gets the heat on there without lingering too long which is why the solder tends to flow toward cooler areas.

In this picture, the one labeled 3138 is the kind I'm talking about:

(but with a chisel-tip instead of a pointed tip)

[Joe Gwinn]

Originally Posted by RedHouse

Having one of those big sheet-metal type soldering irons helps. It gets the heat on there without lingering too long which is why the solder tends to flow toward cooler areas.

In this picture, the one labeled 3138 is the kind I'm talking about:

(but with a chisel-tip instead of a pointed tip)

Are these temperature controlled? This makes a big difference, because a temp controlled iron can have twice the wattage and yet be in no danger of overheating. So, things go really fast, which is good.

[soundmasterg]

Yah temp controlled are where its at. My soldering skills took a huge leap forward when I got a temp controlled iron. I've got a couple nice Wellers now....one for amp work and one for guitar work.

Greg

[SteveJ]

The brass base plates give me fits. I had to solder some covers on Dimarzio's for someone. The brass absorbs the heat so fast that it's hard to get a good joint. Any tips for those?

[Possum]

Kevin T send you a PM, let me know...

[Joe Gwinn]

Originally Posted by SteveJ

The brass base plates give me fits. I had to solder some covers on Dimarzio's for someone. The brass absorbs the heat so fast that it's hard to get a good joint. Any tips for those?

Yeah. You need a BIG iron (if no temp control) for that, or alternately a STRONG iron (with temp control).

An undersized or underpowered iron will cook the whole assembly as it struggles to get the joint up to temperature. If one must err, err on the side of too big, so the joint comes up to temperature fast.

I haven't tried to unsolder any covers with my Weller 50-watt WES51 temp controlled iron, but I bet it will work if I use the wide screwdriver tip. The WES51 cost $100 on sale.

If 50 watts isn't enough, Weller makes some big temp controlled irons for stained glass makers.

I like the heat and separate with a (blunted) razor blade approach.

[RedHouse]

Originally Posted by Joe Gwinn

Yeah. You need a BIG iron (if no temp control) for that, or alternately a STRONG iron (with temp control).

An undersized or underpowered iron will cook the whole assembly as it struggles to get the joint up to temperature. If one must err, err on the side of too big, so the joint comes up to temperature fast.

I haven't tried to unsolder any covers with my Weller 50-watt WES51 temp controlled iron, but I bet it will work if I use the wide screwdriver tip. The WES51 cost $100 on sale.

If 50 watts isn't enough, Weller makes some big temp controlled irons for stained glass makers.

I like the heat and separate with a (blunted) razor blade approach.

I doubt you will be cosmetically successful with a 50W. In my post above I was trying to show how one needs a BIG iron (not huge, but not a standard size one), then heat the joint fast and move off.

It's much like the 5-second rule in soldering silicon, get in, do the deed, get out in the least amount of time. Lingering makes the solder flow where you don't want it, and lingering also brings the baseplate up to a temperature than can start to do things you don't want.
(melting tape, melting/shorting connection wires, bobbin edges etc)

[jrfrond]

High heat, short work time is the key. Many people tend to solder with far too little heat, and things like chassis, pickup covers and baseplates, etc. tend to sink away lots of heat.

The best tool I have found is a good ol' Weller Solder Gun that you can buy in Home Depot. I've got a Weller gun here in the shop that does 100/250W. Even the heaviest of chassis don't stand a chance! Also, to improve heat transfer and boil off insulating oxides, always use some RMA paste flux, or even a bit of fresh rosin-core solder to get the joint going.

[David Schwab]

You have to watch soldering guns around pickups. They generate a magnetic field at the tip, and that can effect alnico magnets.

[RedHouse]

Originally Posted by David Schwab

You have to watch soldering guns around pickups. They generate a magnetic field at the tip, and that can effect alnico magnets.

Yes, most definately!

In pickup making a soldering "gun" is no sub for a ceramic element type soldering tool.

[Joe Gwinn]

Originally Posted by RedHouse

I doubt you will be cosmetically successful with a 50W. In my post above I was trying to show how one needs a BIG iron (not huge, but not a standard size one), then heat the joint fast and move off.

Well, I have not tried to unsolder a cover with the 50-watt weller, but I have been surprised by what it could do more than once. I suppose I'll have to try it. I suppose I need a reason to get one of the really big Wellers:

Amazon.com: Weller W100PG Professional Stained Glass Iron - 100 Watts: Home Improvement

Amazon.com: Weller W100PG Professional Stained Glass Iron - 100 Watts: Home Improvement

[Possum]

I thought about getting one of those soldering stations but seems like you gotta get two different ones because they won't handle stuff like soldering tele baseplates or covers on buckers very well. I stay with old school. I bought 2 made in Taiwan 60 watt irons for $20 on Ebay, they are hot irons and work well. The Chinese ones burn out too fast. Then I use a 20 watt Weller iron. If they die its not an expensive fix like a soldering station.

If you use a soldering GUN, and you notice your pickup vibrating a little when you bring the gun near it, thats your coils demagnetizing your magnets if you get too close.

My Dad has his original soldering iron from WWII that still works!

[David Schwab]

I have an Aoyue 936 soldering station. It's the same as the Hakko 936, but with a lower wattage heating element. I put a chisel tip on it. I love it. It gets really hot, really quickly. I leave it at about 650°.

How the heck do you pronounce "Aoyue" anyway?

[Joe Gwinn]

Originally Posted by Possum

I thought about getting one of those soldering stations but seems like you gotta get two different ones because they won't handle stuff like soldering tele baseplates or covers on buckers very well. I stay with old school. I bought 2 made in Taiwan 60 watt irons for $20 on Ebay, they are hot irons and work well. The Chinese ones burn out too fast. Then I use a 20 watt Weller iron. If they die its not an expensive fix like a soldering station.

I think I would buy one good temp controlled iron for electrical soldering, possibly plus a large iron for covers and baseplates.

The typical 20-watt irons are not a good idea in production. The typical production iron is 40 or 50 watts and temperature controlled. They cost more to be sure, but they work so much better, and you will find only temp controlled irons in electronic production shops.

As for the big Weller (for stained glass), it is designed for sheet metal work, and surely will have no problem with covers and baseplates. Nor is this the biggest iron made, as mentioned later.

If you use a soldering GUN, and you notice your pickup vibrating a little when you bring the gun near it, that's your coils demagnetizing your magnets if you get too close.

I have one of those 250 watt guns that I bought in the late 1950s or early 1960s. Now that we have the Gaussmeter, we can directly test the thesis that these guns demagnetize a pickup. I suspect that they do not, despite the vibration and drama.

I would short the coils though, on the fear/theory that excessive voltage will be induced in the coils. But again this is easily tested by putting a voltmeter across a coil and observing the voltage as the energized gun is brought near.

My Dad has his original soldering iron from WWII that still works!

What make and model? It probably is not temp controlled, but none were back then, and yet life went on.

I recently purchased an real soldering iron - it's a one pound hunk of copper on an iron rod, with a wooden handle at the other end, used for soldering copper flashing and gutters. I can't imagine that such an iron would even notice a pickup, and the price was right: $2.00 at a used tool store.

[RedHouse]

Originally Posted by Joe Gwinn

... Now that we have the Gaussmeter, we can directly test the thesis that these guns demagnetize a pickup. I suspect that they do not, despite the vibration and drama.....

Hey great idea Joe, put our new gear to work! would be a good test.

[Possum]

Well if you are just using a single soldering iron I wouldn't recommend going over 20 watts for soldering bucker leads to 42 guage PE, or really any other wire. Why? Even with a 20 watter if you linger too long, or too hot you leave the copper magnet wire very weakened. I have opened a pickup that died to find that the magnet wire literally just dropped off the solder joint. I've repaired this on other's pickups as well. We have a big discussion about this years ago here on the forum. Lollar said he found over the years that anything he had soldered with a 40watt iron more often the solder joints failed and that none of the lower power iron solder joints did. My Weller 20 watt iron is more than hot enough. For a long time I used a 15 watt iron, but the Weller does a better job especially on PE which has to be scraped pretty good and clean or it will resist soldering well...

[mkat]

Originally Posted by David Schwab

I have an Aoyue 936 soldering station. It's the same as the Hakko 936, but with a lower wattage heating element. I put a chisel tip on it. I love it. It gets really hot, really quickly. I leave it at about 650°.

How the heck do you pronounce "Aoyue" anyway?

LOL, I have both those and every now and then ask the same question. I mainly use the Aoyue. I bought a chisel tip for it a while ago but haven't used that yet, will give it a try.

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by mkat

LOL, I have both those and every now and then ask the same question. I mainly use the Aoyue. I bought a chisel tip for it a while ago but haven't used that yet, will give it a try.

Oh the chisel tip is vital! I couldn't do anything with the tip is came with... good for working with PCBs and SMD I guess.

It's a nice station, especially if you are on a budget. Aoyue makes the Hakko stuff in their factory.

Like Dave said above, I used a 15W and a 40W iron before I got this. You have to watch to not melt the coper wire with the 40W irons, but they strip the insulation well.

The temperature regulated station is the best of both worlds, because it's fast but wont get too hot if you don't want it to.

[SJE]

Originally Posted by David Schwab

How the heck do you pronounce "Aoyue" anyway?

I would guess it would be pronounce - ow (as in if you've just burnt yourself ) and you . . so phonetically ow-you.

This would be how most phonetic transliterations in Asian languages are done.

[Joe Gwinn]

Originally Posted by Possum

Well if you are just using a single soldering iron I wouldn't recommend going over 20 watts for soldering bucker leads to 42 guage PE, or really any other wire. Why? Even with a 20 watter if you linger too long, or too hot you leave the copper magnet wire very weakened. I have opened a pickup that died to find that the magnet wire literally just dropped off the solder joint. I've repaired this on other's pickups as well. We have a big discussion about this years ago here on the forum. Lollar said he found over the years that anything he had soldered with a 40watt iron more often the solder joints failed and that none of the lower power iron solder joints did. My Weller 20 watt iron is more than hot enough. For a long time I used a 15 watt iron, but the Weller does a better job especially on PE which has to be scraped pretty good and clean or it will resist soldering well...

Power (in watts) versus temperature (in degrees) is the issue.

Irons without temperature control are designed to achieve proper temperature with a thermal load proportioned to the wattage of the iron, so if one uses too large a non-controlled iron, the workpiece will be instantly overheated.

With temperature control, no such over-temperature will occur, no matter the wattage. However, a low wattage iron will take forever to get other than tiny workpieces up to temperature, and so tend to cook things.

In production soldering, high-powered temperature controlled irons are universal. The only restriction on how high the power is operator fatigue if the iron is physically too large.

The top-of-the-line $300 Weller soldering stations are 80 watts in a small tip. I just looked at the Cooper Weller website - they now also offer a 120-watt soldering pencil, for use on surface-mount components. The issue is to get the connection up to temperature FAST, so neither board nor component have time to cook.

[soundmasterg]

Originally Posted by Possum

I thought about getting one of those soldering stations but seems like you gotta get two different ones because they won't handle stuff like soldering tele baseplates or covers on buckers very well. I stay with old school. I bought 2 made in Taiwan 60 watt irons for $20 on Ebay, they are hot irons and work well. The Chinese ones burn out too fast. Then I use a 20 watt Weller iron. If they die its not an expensive fix like a soldering station.

If you use a soldering GUN, and you notice your pickup vibrating a little when you bring the gun near it, thats your coils demagnetizing your magnets if you get too close.

My Dad has his original soldering iron from WWII that still works!

Your soldering skills will improve by 200% when you get a temp controlled soldering station Possum. After using both the uncontrolled ones and the temp-controlled ones, I'll never go back to the uncontrolled ones. My 2 cents.....

Greg

P.S. The temp-controlled ones don't go through tips nearly as fast either..

[Possum]

Of all my needs around here, a $200 soldering station isn't even on my list. My irons work fine, no problems. The 15 watt was underkill but even with that I had no problems soldering that weren't overcome by just getting used to what it did. I kinda shy away from things that are expensive and epensive to fix when they break. Old school....shoot me

[jonson]

+1 MrG. 25 years with a Weller solder station Possum and the only cost was half a dozen tips. Upgraded 3 years ago and no probs so far. Iv'e got one of those old copper beaters Joe just as a decoration but once again temperature control does everything inc baseplates.

[Joe Gwinn]

Originally Posted by Possum

Of all my needs around here, a $200 soldering station isn't even on my list. My irons work fine, no problems. The 15 watt was underkill but even with that I had no problems soldering that weren't overcome by just getting used to what it did.

You do not need to spend $200. My everyday iron is a Weller WES51, which I got on sale for $100.

Before that, I used a WTCP for 40 years. I bought an extra heater back then, but have never used it. The iron has never needed repair, so it's now my backup iron. I see these used from time to time for no money at all, and I bet that (unless obviously damaged), all those used irons work just fine. Weller sells repair parts for everything they have ever made.

I kinda shy away from things that are expensive and expensive to fix when they break.

Those non-controlled irons are very expensive, if your time is worth anything.

Soldering should not be such a struggle. First of all, struggle is costly in time. Second, struggle is costly in consistent product quality. Get a real production-grade iron and be done with it.

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by soundmasterg

P.S. The temp-controlled ones don't go through tips nearly as fast either..

That's one of the reasons I got one. I used to have a nice Hexicon station, but the thermistor went bad, and at the time I didn't know where to get it serviced.

So then I used regular irons, and since I often have it on for long periods was changing tips every few weeks.

And I can turn this off and not have to wait for it to come up to temperature... it's very fast.

And Dave, look... it's under $40 and come with a replacement heating element!

Aoyue Basic Soldering Station 936 > Soldering Stations > Main Section > Stan Rubinstein Assoc., Inc.

[SteveJ]

Originally Posted by Joe Gwinn

Yeah. You need a BIG iron (if no temp control) for that, or alternately a STRONG iron (with temp control).

Thanks Joe. Thinking about it I probably just need to swap my tip for a larger one when I do pickup covers. The one I have does fine on steel but I'm probably not getting fast enough heat transfer on brass. I have a old Pace soldering station so it should handle the job.

[Joe Gwinn]

Originally Posted by SteveJ

Thinking about it I probably just need to swap my tip for a larger one when I do pickup covers. The one I have does fine on steel but I'm probably not getting fast enough heat transfer on brass.

Yes, a wide tip helps a lot, so if it almost worked with the narrow tip, the wide tip may work just peachy. It's certainly worth a try.

I have a old Pace soldering station so it should handle the job.

I have an old Pace desoldering kit that I used only a few times -- the solder sucker and braid was faster than hauling the Pace out, as the need was occasional.

I'll be damned - Pace survives: Welcome to Pace Worldwide. They were one of the Cadillac brands. I thought they were gone, not having seen any ads or mentions recently. Now they sell direct over the web, probably plus distributors.

[Joe Gwinn]

Well, I came upon another soldering iron I bought for nothing at a used-tool place. I think I paid $2.00 for it, but don't recall. It came without a cord, so I was really buying it for the big hunk of copper that passes for a tip, but after some ohmmeter work I think it probably works, and I'm putting a cord on it. It is very simple and seems well made.

The details: Vulcan No. 90, 120 volts, 480 watts (yes, about a half a kilowatt), from Vulcan Electric Co. The head weighs 1.2 Kg (2.6 pounds), mostly from the huge copper tip (1.5" diameter). No temperature control, but who's counting?

This iron is probably intended for soldering copper gutters and flashing on houses.

Vulcan is a fairly common name for companies dealing in the heating and/or forming of metal, but I suspect that the maker was the Vulcan Electric Company of Porter Maine. But they don't make soldering irons any more.

The No 90 will surely handle soldering and unsoldering pickup covers.