butyrate color (pigment)

clown_luthier · 11-05-2009, 12:31 PM

where to buy pigment for CAB like on this beautiful OTPG bobbins?

thanx guys

jonson · 11-05-2009, 01:24 PM

They are from the Uk and prob takes quite a bit of searching to get the right colours.

clown_luthier · 11-05-2009, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonson

They are from the Uk and prob takes quite a bit of searching to get the right colours.

Thanx, do you maybe know where to buy any pigment that can be used in butyrate? are this normal pigments for plastic?

copperheadroads · 11-05-2009, 03:02 PM

watch this . it might answer you question

YouTube- How to Make a Pickup Part 2

belwar · 11-05-2009, 05:30 PM

I actually phoned Evan and asked if he would sell some of that dye. They said no (fair enough!). I love the SD pickups, and the people there.

You do require special dye for butyrate, and there is a minimum, and while it will last 10+ years, it's not like its going to cost $25000. It usually about a 100lb minimum at like $10 / lb.

What you need to do is get a sample of the color you want and give it to the molder. It also depends on what you are going for.. Faded white? Cream? White? I dont think there really IS a right color. You have to choose something you like. For example (to me) the allparts stuff is too pink, the Seymour Duncan stuff is too white. etc.

JGundry · 11-05-2009, 05:32 PM

CAB can be colored to match whatever sample you give the place doing the color match.

jonson · 11-05-2009, 07:44 PM

That's the one. Have your sample to start with, you can't do it from pics and get the molder to match it.

clown_luthier · 11-05-2009, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonson

That's the one. Have your sample to start with, you can't do it from pics and get the molder to match it.

Thanx, i have OTPG rings, i think color on bobbins is identical on bobbins and on rings, right?
i'm quite sure material is same, cab.

i have injection molder, but not material, i can buy material (cab) in granulas and in natural color, so i now must buy only pigment (dye)

do you think i can use dye for ABS and mix it with CAB?

Possum · 11-06-2009, 02:28 AM

Why are you trying to copy another company's coloring? Why not the real thing?

clown_luthier · 11-06-2009, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Possum

Why are you trying to copy another company's coloring? Why not the real thing?

unfortunately, i don't have access to a real thing

i think otpg and shed's are closest to a real thing, right?

clown_luthier · 11-06-2009, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clown_luthier

do you think i can use dye for ABS and mix it with CAB?

i think this is not possible, i find out that dye (pigment) must be organic

Possum · 11-06-2009, 02:27 PM

Well look at the OTPG bobbins compared to the real bobbins I posted, the OTPG's are more yellowish. Yeah they are physically accurate bobbins. Are you making butyrate bobbins?

clown_luthier · 11-06-2009, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Possum

Well look at the OTPG bobbins compared to the real bobbins I posted, the OTPG's are more yellowish. Yeah they are physically accurate bobbins. Are you making butyrate bobbins?

i think i will try to make a few prototypes in near future, maybe early next year

i have a great friend on cnc machine who can make me a mold, and a neighbour with a injection molder

i think i have found souce for butyrate granules and now i'm waiting one lab to make me dye for prototypes

JGundry · 11-06-2009, 04:08 PM

The cream color of an old PAF bobbin varies because the plastic yellows over time and that yellowing varies with how much light exposure the plastic gets over time and how much bar room scuz colors it over time. You really cannot say that is one color that is correct.

I'm sure they will correct me if I'm wrong but I think Bare Knuckle, OTP and Spence all use bobbins made from the same mold. They are easy to spot because the edge radius is too large for a PAF bobbin, although they do look very nice. I would bet that the OTP bobbin pictured has been tinted further with some sort of dye or colorant even after it was molded.

LtKojak · 11-06-2009, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by belwar

I actually phoned Evan and asked if he would sell some of that dye. They said no (fair enough!). I love the SD pickups, and the people there.

I think if you ask to buy their butyrate bobbins, they would.

Another phone call...?

belwar · 11-06-2009, 07:09 PM

No I wouldnt want to do that. I'm friends with a few people there and I wouldnt want to take advantage of my friendship with them. Instead i go to all the work of making my own mold (with a partner) and spend thousands of dollars. me = smart.

Really I should just use their products on my guitars, since I am like 20 miles from them and they're great pickups, but i really like punishing myself.

bel.

LtKojak · 11-06-2009, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by belwar

No I wouldnt want to do that. I'm friends with a few people there and I wouldnt want to take advantage of my friendship with them. Instead i go to all the work of making my own mold (with a partner) and spend thousands of dollars. me = smart.

Really I should just use their products on my guitars, since I am like 20 miles from them and they're great pickups, but i really like punishing myself.

bel.

I don't think buying the bobbins from them would mean "taking advantage of" anything. I remember Evan saying that they've made enough butyrate bobbins for three lifetimes, as they're used only in their Antiquities series and those are surely NOT the bulk of their sales.

C'mon, Bel... is just a phone call... nobody's going to die or anything.

Inquiring minds would like to know!

belwar · 11-06-2009, 09:09 PM

They have been very gracious to me helping me with finding several suppliers. I have nothing of value to offer in return, except free guitars. I would just personally feel like I was taking advantage and I dont want to go down that road. I'm a douche, but not a Douche-bag.

JGundry · 11-06-2009, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LtKojak

I don't think buying the bobbins from them would mean "taking advantage of" anything. I remember Evan saying that they've made enough butyrate bobbins for three lifetimes, as they're used only in their Antiquities series and those are surely NOT the bulk of their sales.

C'mon, Bel... is just a phone call... nobody's going to die or anything.

Inquiring minds would like to know!

I'm pretty sure Bel and his bobbin partner would like bobbins that are more vintage accurate than Seymour Duncan bobbins anyway.

belwar · 11-06-2009, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgundry

i'm pretty sure bel and his bobbin partner would like bobbins that are more vintage accurate than seymour duncan bobbins anyway.

oh snap

clown_luthier · 11-06-2009, 09:56 PM

hey guys can anyone tell me a little about plasticizer

so this is my 3rd componenet in bobbin?

1. butyrate
2. dye
3. plasticizer

4. anything else

what type? plasticizer also must be organic base? where to buy it?

belwar · 11-06-2009, 10:07 PM

When you buy butyrate pellets, the plastisizer is already in it.

There are about 200 different butyrates listed, but only 3-4 that are commercially readily available since few use it anymore. If you want one of the the other 196 types then you'll need to order 10 tons worth. At 5 grams a bobbin you are looking at 2,000,000 bobbins.

The advise given to me (maybe that sam lee guy?) was take the least amount of plastisizer available.

clown_luthier · 11-06-2009, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by belwar

When you buy butyrate pellets, the plastisizer is already in it.

Thanx belwar, you guys are great

do you have any pics of your bobbins? pics of prototype?

LtKojak · 11-06-2009, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by belwar

There are about 200 different butyrates listed, but only 3-4 that are commercially readily available since few use it anymore. If you want one of the the other 196 types then you'll need to order 10 tons worth. At 5 grams a bobbin you are looking at 2,000,000 bobbins.

This is EXACTLY what Evan said! Looks like Seymour did go through with the 10 tons order after all.

Still no phone call...?

J/K

belwar · 11-06-2009, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LtKojak

This is EXACTLY what Evan said! Looks like Seymour did go through with the 10 tons order after all.

Still no phone call...?

J/K

Personally when alayzing what other people do (particularly gibson), I try to keep occams razor in the forefront of my pee brain. However, when you are talking about people who are making PAF replicas occams goes right out the window. I thought I read an SD interview somewhere that said the Mr. Lover (coolest name ever) gave Seymour his notes with the original butyrate formula.

That being said, gibson would have just used what was cheap and available. That formula would likely be a eastman part number from the 1950's, probably listing plastizer content. Now maybe that formula mentioned includes coloring information.

David Schwab · 11-07-2009, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by belwar

That being said, gibson would have just used what was cheap and available. That formula would likely be a eastman part number from the 1950's, probably listing plastizer content. Now maybe that formula mentioned includes coloring information.

Exactly! They didn't pick that plastic because of some mythical tonal attributes, and they didn't even agonize over a cream color, since the bobbins were never meant to be seen. They ended up with off white bobbins instead of black probably because the supplier either had a lot of that color handy or ran out of black, or it was cheaper. What color is that plastic with no die anyway?

Everyone... stop the madness! Stop worrying about what Gibson did 50 years ago and do something better!

Possum · 11-07-2009, 02:39 AM

I really don't think Duncan would sell their proprietary parts to other pickup makers, and yes their butyrate bobbin aren't accurate.

I'm not sure how important using butyrate is anyway, they physical resonance of a CAB bobbin is slightly darker than black ABS or whatever is being used now. From my own messing around with dielectric effects its very very doubtful there is any of that going on that would make any noticeable difference. It takes quite a big "push" in dielectric effect to even be heard. From my perspective, what happens in the coil is more important than the type of plastic. Granted you can at least claim they are PAF correct if you get the dimensions right, but then again, that stuff shrinks over time and shrinks right out of the mold so there are even noticeable differences in authentic examples, plus Gibson made several changes along the way as well...

Sam Lee Guy · 11-08-2009, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clown_luthier

where to buy pigment for CAB like on this beautiful OTPG bobbins?

thanx guys

Photos velly deceptive with colour. Sam no want bobbins with colour of these photos, look green like lime or cully!

Real OTP bobbins pale beige then yellowed with secret ageing forumura!

the great waldo · 11-08-2009, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Lee Guy

Photos velly deceptive with colour. Sam no want bobbins with colour of these photos, look green like lime or cully!

Real OTP bobbins pale beige then yellowed with secret ageing forumura!

ELLO SAM

Methinks you need to set up your monitor or take of the raybans !

Cheers

Andrew

David Schwab · 11-08-2009, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the great waldo

ELLO SAM

Methinks you need to set up your monitor or take of the raybans !

Cheers

Andrew

PC monitors often have a blueish cast.

They look like cream to me. (calibrated monitor)

Possum · 11-09-2009, 05:09 AM

Sam Lee Guy PC is from 1972, green screen.....

11-05-2009, 12:31 PM	#1
clown_luthier Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 41	butyrate color (pigment) where to buy pigment for CAB like on this beautiful OTPG bobbins? thanx guys

11-05-2009, 05:32 PM	#6
JGundry Supporting Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 552	CAB can be colored to match whatever sample you give the place doing the color match. __________________ www.throbak.com

11-06-2009, 02:27 PM	#12
Possum Old Timer Join Date: May 2006 Location: Planet Mongo in the country of PAF Posts: 2,584	.... Well look at the OTPG bobbins compared to the real bobbins I posted, the OTPG's are more yellowish. Yeah they are physically accurate bobbins. Are you making butyrate bobbins? __________________ http://www.SDpickups.com Stephens Design Pickups

11-06-2009, 04:08 PM	#14
JGundry Supporting Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 552	The cream color of an old PAF bobbin varies because the plastic yellows over time and that yellowing varies with how much light exposure the plastic gets over time and how much bar room scuz colors it over time. You really cannot say that is one color that is correct. I'm sure they will correct me if I'm wrong but I think Bare Knuckle, OTP and Spence all use bobbins made from the same mold. They are easy to spot because the edge radius is too large for a PAF bobbin, although they do look very nice. I would bet that the OTP bobbin pictured has been tinted further with some sort of dye or colorant even after it was molded. __________________ www.throbak.com

11-07-2009, 02:39 AM	#27
Possum Old Timer Join Date: May 2006 Location: Planet Mongo in the country of PAF Posts: 2,584	... I really don't think Duncan would sell their proprietary parts to other pickup makers, and yes their butyrate bobbin aren't accurate. I'm not sure how important using butyrate is anyway, they physical resonance of a CAB bobbin is slightly darker than black ABS or whatever is being used now. From my own messing around with dielectric effects its very very doubtful there is any of that going on that would make any noticeable difference. It takes quite a big "push" in dielectric effect to even be heard. From my perspective, what happens in the coil is more important than the type of plastic. Granted you can at least claim they are PAF correct if you get the dimensions right, but then again, that stuff shrinks over time and shrinks right out of the mold so there are even noticeable differences in authentic examples, plus Gibson made several changes along the way as well... __________________ http://www.SDpickups.com Stephens Design Pickups

YouTube- How to Make a Pickup Part 2

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Similar Threads

11-05-2009, 01:24 PM	#2
jonson Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 466	They are from the Uk and prob takes quite a bit of searching to get the right colours.

11-05-2009, 05:30 PM	#5
belwar Supporting Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 629	I actually phoned Evan and asked if he would sell some of that dye. They said no (fair enough!). I love the SD pickups, and the people there. You do require special dye for butyrate, and there is a minimum, and while it will last 10+ years, it's not like its going to cost $25000. It usually about a 100lb minimum at like $10 / lb. What you need to do is get a sample of the color you want and give it to the molder. It also depends on what you are going for.. Faded white? Cream? White? I dont think there really IS a right color. You have to choose something you like. For example (to me) the allparts stuff is too pink, the Seymour Duncan stuff is too white. etc.

11-05-2009, 07:44 PM	#7
jonson Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 466	That's the one. Have your sample to start with, you can't do it from pics and get the molder to match it.

11-06-2009, 07:09 PM	#16
belwar Supporting Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 629	No I wouldnt want to do that. I'm friends with a few people there and I wouldnt want to take advantage of my friendship with them. Instead i go to all the work of making my own mold (with a partner) and spend thousands of dollars. me = smart. Really I should just use their products on my guitars, since I am like 20 miles from them and they're great pickups, but i really like punishing myself. bel.

11-06-2009, 09:09 PM	#18
belwar Supporting Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 629	They have been very gracious to me helping me with finding several suppliers. I have nothing of value to offer in return, except free guitars. I would just personally feel like I was taking advantage and I dont want to go down that road. I'm a douche, but not a Douche-bag.

11-06-2009, 09:56 PM	#21
clown_luthier Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 41	hey guys can anyone tell me a little about plasticizer so this is my 3rd componenet in bobbin? 1. butyrate 2. dye 3. plasticizer 4. anything else what type? plasticizer also must be organic base? where to buy it?

11-06-2009, 10:07 PM	#22
belwar Supporting Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 629	When you buy butyrate pellets, the plastisizer is already in it. There are about 200 different butyrates listed, but only 3-4 that are commercially readily available since few use it anymore. If you want one of the the other 196 types then you'll need to order 10 tons worth. At 5 grams a bobbin you are looking at 2,000,000 bobbins. The advise given to me (maybe that sam lee guy?) was take the least amount of plastisizer available.

11-09-2009, 05:09 AM	#31
Possum Old Timer Join Date: May 2006 Location: Planet Mongo in the country of PAF Posts: 2,584	... Sam Lee Guy PC is from 1972, green screen..... __________________ http://www.SDpickups.com Stephens Design Pickups

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