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Thread: Klemt Echolette S

  1. #36
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    I just measured four Using a good quality digital caliper.

    Being here in the states, I used old fashioned english units.

    All four rollers are 1/2" high. Two that appear to be originals measure 0.77 and 0.78 inches in diameter. Two that I had rebuilt measure 0.82 and 0.83 inches in diameter. Alll work just fine.

    You need to be certain that the roller doesn't touch the capstan when the unit is off or when it is on without the echo engaged. Otherwise you can develop flat spots on the roller. There is certainly some wiggle room in the size of the pinch roller since there is a tensioning spring that holds it against the capstan.

  2. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazooman View Post
    I just measured four Using a good quality digital caliper.

    Being here in the states, I used old fashioned english units.

    All four rollers are 1/2" high. Two that appear to be originals measure 0.77 and 0.78 inches in diameter. Two that I had rebuilt measure 0.82 and 0.83 inches in diameter. Alll work just fine.

    You need to be certain that the roller doesn't touch the capstan when the unit is off or when it is on without the echo engaged. Otherwise you can develop flat spots on the roller. There is certainly some wiggle room in the size of the pinch roller since there is a tensioning spring that holds it against the capstan.




    Thanks guys for the answer, Now i got anither issue....

    it seem that i got no sound at all from the heads. The control from the left side all work volume, tone. But none of the center buttons there is no effect at all if i move them.
    (by the way i changed the pinch roller now the tape is rolling so far for this part)

    did anyone had this problem before is there a fuse that might be broken or something...??

    Next step is a real tech i guess.


    thanks for your times guys

  3. #38
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    This problem is not so simple to troubleshoot. Make sure you're operating the controls correctly, and if so, you'll need to follow the signal path from the heads to the output. There are several ways to do this, but all require some kind of test equipment.

    By the way, in some cases the playback heads open (no signal), but for this to happen to both is fairly unlikely. The "short/long" switch connects and disconnects one of the playback heads (there are two) so make sure you try it on "short."

    Bob

  4. #39
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    In Echo Mode only 1 repro head is working. (#4, if this is your dead 16 MEG head)
    Maybe you still don't have a schematic.
    Schematic Echolette E51 (same as NG51 but with snubbing networks at
    the motor switch, some people retrofit it on the NG51)
    :

    regards,

    Tito
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails echolette_e51_tapeecho.gif  
    Last edited by spamunkulus; 06-11-2012 at 09:19 PM.

  5. #40
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    My Repair sequence for the E51.

    I would try to isolate the mechanical and electrical part/problems.

    I start at the repro amp, bias generator off (tube removed).No tape installed.

    A line test signal or better tone generator 1Vpp is fed to
    the repro head via 1 nF and 1MEG (series).
    due to the inductance of the head
    this should result in a more or less flat frequency response at the output of the repro amp.

    This signal takes his pass through the feedback pot to the record amp,
    so the record amp might be checked that way as well.
    The Repro head/channel which is not tested should be switched off by
    grounding the plate of the first stage with a .1 uF capacitor.

    Then check the input /mic amps (and again record amp)

    Then check the bias oscillator.

    Is the repro amp still working correctly, when the bias oscillator is on?

    Then switch the bias off again and install a prerecorded tape loop with
    a test tone.

    Now check the signal at the first stage and do mechanical adjustments of the
    repro heads. cleaning/polishing . Maybe the head gap is opening and the sound has no treble.

    as well wow an flutter can be checked now.

    When the repro section works I can put back the bias oscillator tube and check the recording.
    The recorded signal of head 1 gets damped by head 2 and 3, that is normal.
    For keeping it sounding halfway bright, head 1 is underbiased, the vaiable capacitor has a lower
    value compared to head 2 and 3 . Biasing: see a service manual for Tape recorders like Revox A77.

    I would not recommend to exchange too many (or maybe any) caps, when the unit is working properly.
    I have old gear which I use very often and which is working perfectly- original caps, even electrolytics.
    This is briefly my sequence of checking the E51 (NG51).


    Tito
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  6. #41
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    Hey all,

    Just joined up to the forum to say thank you to you all.

    I received my NG 51 in the mail yesterday, am waiting on tapes to arrive from the UK though..! (Australia here)

    Plugging it in, it has a fairly clean sound, but a lot of gain/overdrive with the input level on 50%.
    I will try playing with the trim pots on the side and back I guess?

    Thanks for the input from everyone's experiences. I look forward to getting into this unit!

  7. #42
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    Smile klemt echolette. Mine is not working properly. Anyone has a manual in english, please

    I got a unit from germany but no echo sound....it is not working properly. Anyone has a manual in english, please, so I can try to figure out if I am doing something wrong? My email address is: pastel@clix.pt
    Any help would be really appreciated.

  8. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by carloswolf View Post
    I got a unit from germany but no echo sound....it is not working properly. Anyone has a manual in english, please, so I can try to figure out if I am doing something wrong? My email address is: pastel@clix.pt
    Any help would be really appreciated.
    No echo could be due to a lot of things. I hope you are able to figure it out.

    Watch your email for several messages.

  9. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazooman View Post
    No echo could be due to a lot of things. I hope you are able to figure it out.

    Watch your email for several messages.
    I tired to send the manual but the files are big. I broke it down into three messages but I got an error message back from each saying that the message is larger than the space in your mail folder.

  10. #45
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    Having repaired several Echolette tape echos I have finally decided to understand fully the schematic. Unlike Charlie Watkins (Wem-Watkins Copicat) the designer of these tape echos is no longer with us so cannot get a detailed description of the function of each component. The component that intriques me is R57 in both the NG51 and the later E51 schematics, does it pass signal both ways? The in between S model appears to be an short stop upgrade which was virtually discontinued to make way for the E51. If I was a little more inclined I would disconnect one end of R57 in a E51 which I have on the bench but thought maybe someone out there may know more than I do, which wouldn't be difficult. Thanks, Mickey

  11. #46
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    Awesome thread! Some of the best echolette info I can find. So I just bought a rackmount Ng51. Which seems in decent shape on the inside. The most obvious issue is there is no mains transformer. Can anyone advise me on what I need to look for in a replacement? I see that the original had all the different settings for different countries. I'm not so concerned about replicating that unless I have to. Would it be possible to just wire it for use in the USA?

    Other than that has anyone seen a rackmounted echolette before? I just thought it was too cool to pass up so a fun project to scratch my head over. I'll try to post a few pics and update as I progress.image.jpgimage.jpgimage.jpg

  12. #47
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    There was a rack mounted echo on Ebay recently. Perhaps that is where you got yours.

    I can't think of any reason why you couldn't wire the unit for US voltage only. The problem will be finding an appropriate transformer. There are three output voltages required. 6.3V / 1.5 A for the pilot lights and the heaters. 275V to go to the bridge rectifier. Finally, you need a 42V tap for the tape drive motor. You might have to settle for two transformers.

    I can't tell from the pictures how the power supply is currently set up. You should install a three pronged plug to properly ground the unit. Be certain that you have a proper fuse in place. If it still has the original selenium rectifier you should replace with a modern silicon bridge rectifier before firing the echo up. When you have all of the power supply section repaired, I would recommend starting out with a lightbulb current limiter to see if there are any hidden problems. You can then check the DC voltages and adjust the values of the resistors at the filter caps if necessary.

  13. #48
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    Power Transformer Echolette

    Quote Originally Posted by Muesic View Post
    Awesome thread! Some of the best echolette info I can find. So I just bought a rackmount Ng51. Which seems in decent shape on the inside. The most obvious issue is there is no mains transformer. Can anyone advise me on what I need to look for in a replacement? I see that the original had all the different settings for different countries. I'm not so concerned about replicating that unless I have to. Would it be possible to just wire it for use in the USA?

    Other than that has anyone seen a rackmounted echolette before? I just thought it was too cool to pass up so a fun project to scratch my head over. I'll try to post a few pics and update as I progress.Click image for larger version. 

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    Hi, I know where you can get a power transformer albeit used. There is repair person who has one of the NG51s on his shelf which has been cannibalized ( the heads were faulty ), but I would think he would want top dollar for it. It would save you a lot of wasted time trying to locate one or more transformers. However if you go down the non-original replacement track you will require a transformer with a 270V AC winding at 80mA, a heater supply of 6.3V AC at 2.5A and a 42V AC at probably 1A. This latter winding I can confirm for you if you want to do it this way.
    Before you start spending money I would check all heads for continuity and also the 48uf motor capacitor as well as visually checking the motor for any obvious overload signs. The pots are also problematic but with a little ingenuity these can be replaced with of-the-shelf ones.
    I have never seen or heard of a rack mount Echolette NG51 so I hope you can get it back into a working state as it would be rather rare. It may however be a home made rack conversion?
    Anyway good luck and don't hesitate to ask for assistance. Good luck, Mickey
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  14. #49
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    Ok thanks guys. I didn't buy it on ebay but it may have been listed on there. I just got it off of craigslist. It very well could be a home made rack. I can't really tell. The type on the serial tag is listed as ng51a. It seems in decent shape. I'll check the heads. The motor came unscrewed in shipping and looks to have frayed a few wires.

  15. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muesic View Post
    Ok thanks guys. I didn't buy it on ebay but it may have been listed on there. I just got it off of craigslist. It very well could be a home made rack. I can't really tell. The type on the serial tag is listed as ng51a. It seems in decent shape. I'll check the heads. The motor came unscrewed in shipping and looks to have frayed a few wires.
    No concern where you got it! My comment regarding Ebay was just to note that I had recently seen a vintage rack-mount Echo. I think you have a real find. They clearly existed and they must be pretty rare as compared to the stand-alone units.

    If you could post some pictures of the unit (inside and out, from all angles) we might be able to help you solve some problems. We can compare the guts to the Echolettes we have to see if the basic circuit is the same.

    Keep posting on your progress, we would love to,help.

  16. #51
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    I'm interested in the transformer. I sent you a pm but it's not In the sent box, so not sure if that worked. Pm me the details if you can. Thanks!

  17. #52
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    I had a few of these and got them all working quite well a few years back
    The fellow mention Bobby Staedal in Germany was hugely helpful, sent me a schematic and tutored me on many things
    He specializes in these tape echos and has for years
    One thing he insisted on was to recap the entire unit as ALL the caps tend to be leaking DC
    Once you've done one or two you can graduate to brain surgery as it is not dissimilar
    That was his recommendation. It worked wonders on one unit I had
    He also sells tapes, pinch rollers etc etc

  18. #53
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    Hello there,

    I bought the NG51 few weeks ago, the preamp is working perfectly but the echo doesn't work at all.
    the tape is rolling but the sound is not affected..
    Is anyone came across this problem before?
    I hope it's not a bad tapehead, apparently each should be 1.1k ohm but any idea how to measure them cause it's pretty hard to access..
    Next step for me 'll be to build an audio test probe and trace the signal,
    i 'll be grateful for your suggestions!
    (sorry for the bad english i'm french..)

  19. #54
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    Hi, does the visual indicator respond when a signal is applied, if it does I would check valves (tubes) 3 & 4. If the indicator doesn't show signs of signal then I would check valves 1 & 2. Rarely would all heads be that defective that some kind of echo signal isn't present at the output. The heads are problematic but don't rush in and start disconnecting things to measure the heads. Whatever you don't start turning pre-set controls. Check that both playback heads are "on".
    Do you have a good multi-meter and a schematic for the item and make sure that the schematic is for the correct model.
    Let us know what how you progress and also your level of electronic circuit knowledge.
    Mike

  20. #55
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    hello Mike, many thanks for your answer!

    - the visual indicator does respond when the signal is applied also when the reverb button is on, but thanks to your method i noticed that nothing happened when i turned on the reverb control button. I mean the signal passes, but the "magic-eye" doesn't respond
    - so i've replaced each tube with good ones (i didn't have a 12AT7 so i put a 12AX7 instead), now the visual indicator is responding i noticed that it's starts to make a hum when i turn on the reverb control button, the sound is pretty overdriven but still no echo..

    my level in electronic is pretty low, i only know how to build pedal effect and look into an amp without dammage myself.
    I doesn't feel confident with schematics, but if you or someone knows the NG51S well and could show me test points, i can do the job.
    I only want to be sure to make everything is possible before taking it to the tech, thanks to you and other forumers.

    Cheers Nick

  21. #56
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    Hi Nick,
    You can put that 12AT7 back as this is the bias oscillator which has less gain than a 12AX7.
    With unit switched on I would check for voltage on pins 1 or 6 of valve 3. You can remove the valve to do this but remember to count the pins anti-clockwise when measuring from the top. This will give you an indication if voltages are reaching valve 3. Do this again for valve 4 but measure at pins 1 AND 6, you should read about 200 volts.
    If there is voltage present at these pins then I would replace the valves and with a small metal blade screwdriver slightly touch the head gap of the replay heads after making sure the reverb control (nachallstarke) is fully clockwise. You should hear a noise through your amp when doing this. You can also go to the reverb duration control and touch the active side of the playback head 2 switch which must be in the on position. You should hear a loud buzz through your amp when doing this.
    Now I assume that you have removed the chassis from the case and that you realize there are lethal voltages where the wiring is. Just be very carefull and work slowly and methodically. Let us know your findings.
    Mike

  22. #57
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    Hi Mike,
    i measured the valves as you said and we have:
    -valve 3 = 140V
    -valve 4: pin 1= 196V and pin 6= 224V

    next i touched the replayheads with reverb control fully clockwise, i got a slightly little "poc" very low on the first one on the left.
    then i put the switch on and nothing happened with the playback head 2.Still got a lot of hum coming from de reverb control

    sounds like dead tapeheads?..

    Nick

  23. #58
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    Hi Nick,
    Well it appears that the power supply is functioning as designed.
    If you can touch the input to valve 3 coming from head 2, that is the one that has a switch across it, which should be accessible from the connection on the switch located on the rear of the nachalldauer control. If you touch this with your finger via a screwdriver you should hear a loud buzz through your amplifier, and this would then indicate that that particular playback head is faulty. I would mention that playback heads are seldom faulty especially on "S" type machines unless of course they are just worn out from use. The early NG51 models had serious corrosion problems in the record heads and I believe that the large bias signal voltage played a part in their demise.
    You can also trace the playback head wires to where they connect to valve 3 and again by touching the input grids of this valve you should hear a loud buzz through your amp.
    I should have asked but does your NG51 have printed circuit boards or does it use point-to-point wiring? This differentiates the models.
    Back to your problem, if there isn't a loud buzz then I would check valve 4 circuitry as the output signal is derived in part from this valve. Again try touching the input grids of valve 4 to see if a loud buzz is heard, making sure that the nachallstarke control is turned up fully. You could also remove valve 3 while doing this to stop any spurious signal from coming through.
    My strategy is to trace the signal backwards from your amp back to the playback heads, if this proves to be OK then we move to the recording section.
    Good luck, I look forward to your findings.
    Mike

  24. #59
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    Great thread. I am in need of help too I'm afraid.
    It's an NG51S my machine.
    All three record and one of the playback heads were open circuit and have been replaced.
    Bobby Staedel . What a great chap.
    Power caps replaced along with the one electo in the case I can actually get at.New pinch roller.
    The tape motor moves with no issues.There is a dry signal all the way through.
    I can see a good bias and signal on my scope at each of the heads.
    I have applied a signal at the playback heads and that shows through to the output.What I can't get is an echo.
    The playback heads both make a noise through amp when gently tapped with screwdriver.I have tried un-soldering one playback head and attaching scope across it. Still no signal from tape.
    I'm used to dealing with copicats but this one has me rather foxed.
    Any help would be greatly appreciated.
    Thanks.
    Steve

  25. #60
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    Hi Steve,
    Yeah, Copicats are more easy to repair/restore except for one model which usually has a bias oscillator issue, but that's another story.
    I agree with Bobby Staedel being a great chap but be aware (from personal experience) that his heads can still be faulty after his rewinding.
    Long ago I made up a tape with 1Khz signal on it, easy to do on any working echolette by simply feeding in the signal and disconnecting the playback head, this used to be a great assist when I initially started to repair echolettes.
    I would suggest that your issue is in the recording section and if you have a CRO you should be able to trace the signal to the recording heads which you state you can see, but can you see this on each of the three record heads?
    I would probably select just one record head and check the signal is going to it and then ascertain if that signal is picked up by a playback head, again I would only use one playback head while doing this checking. You can have a good signal with bias at a record head but if the record head is defective then the signal isn't being transposed to the tape.
    Unfortunately I don't have scan to email convertor on my printer but if I can locate a business or person who can email me my detailed NG51 schematic I will then forward that on to you but will then require your personal email address.
    Cheers, Mike

  26. #61
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    Thanks Mike. I am working off the schematic online at present which is a little grainy so any improvement is useful.
    I'm getting a good signal at all three heads measured at the junction of the 100k/150pf . Have tried to see on scope with and without the bias engaged. Shows up well both ways.
    Have tried to get the signal to the tape(same stuff I use for the copicats) with each one of the heads in turn two and then three. Still no joy. Then tried with the playback head disconnected and reconnected to just the scope. Nothing showing. Cheers

  27. #62
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    Hi Steve, just a quick thought, have you measured the bias signal at the record heads? Head 1 has 160V, head 2 has 120V, head 3 has 90v but these could be reduced by up to 20% evenly across the three. The erase head should have about 90V. Also check that the bias signal is very close to 60Khz. Cheers, Mike

  28. #63
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    My scope does 10v per cm. 5cm +\_. Off the scale on all three. Have had a bit of a fiddle with the 150pf trim pots which did change the voltage of it. Haven't measured the frequency yet.

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    Attachment 32984

    Hi Mike,

    this one is a point-to-point wiring,really crowdy in there..
    I followed your procedure, i touched the wires in white circles on the the picture attached,
    not sure for the input of the valve 4 it's pretty hard to see it..
    hope i've done well, if yes, no loud buzz were coming from the amp as i touched those wires.

    -Strange thing is since yesterday, the sound gets really distorded as i turn on the reverb control clockwise

    -in the configuration as follow, something is goin' on, i get a sort of fuzzy sound with a bit of oscillation as i :
    - switch on the Nachhall buttons "long or"chort"
    - Head 1, button at zero
    - reverb control button at, 1/1.5 before it's get too much distorded
    - reverb duration at 5

    that's mean almost one playhead is working?

    Nick

  30. #65
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    The bias voltages I got from Bobby are 60, 90, and 120 on heads 1, 2, and 3 by his numbering. The erase head should be 70 - 80 volts. Be certain to use a non-conductive screwdriver when adjusting the trim capacitors to set the voltages.

    If either or both of you send me a personal message with an email address I can send you a pdf of the schematic and a pdf of the manual (in English).

  31. #66
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    notea, could you try uploading your attachment again? Apparently you didn't complete the process of adding the attachment to your post. Here's a thread from another forum that explains the problem:

    vBulletin 4.xx, Stop Attachments Getting Deleted - the Invalid Attachment Problem
    -tb

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    Hi Nick,

    I can't download your attachment. I have a better schematic which I'll happily send to you so can you please send me your email address.

    Cheers

    Mike

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    Hi, the service schematic I sent to Nick also show the voltages as 60,90 & 120V AC. My other notes that I have from a previous repair show the voltages a lot higher so I believe that any adjustment requires a difference of about 30V from one head to the next. The oscillator frequency needs to be 60Khz +- 5% and the erase head requires approximately 80V AC, and from memory a quick check is to measure the voltage coming from the oscillator transformer feeding the record heads. This voltage needs to be approximately 250V AC. Regarding the CRO it may be a good idea to invest in one of those probes which have an inbuilt attenuator which will reduce the input by a factor of 10.
    If the output (what there is) is severely distorted it may be worth bridging all the power supply filter capacitors, and also long ago I found valve 2 cathode bypass capacitor to be defective but I don't remember the effect it had.

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    img_06061re.jpg

    Hi, sorry for this and thanks for the link i try again

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    img_0614re.jpg

    Hello everybody,
    here in attachement i found a problem,

    when i turn on de reverb control button, and with the head 1 button at zero the "magic-eye" gets distorded. And when i turn this button clockwise it's not..
    it looks like a double pot.

    could it be a dead or open?, how could i test it (without scope), and where is it on the schematic?
    If i build an audio test probe, could someone show me the test points on schematic or name them?
    sorry a lot of questions..

    cheers Nick

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