the Thomas Winder

[Rob DiStefano]

bought off ebay a week ago for less than $300/shipped, and it arrived this afternoon. i love my sidewinder, but this machine is simply better. the main tower is an extruded aluminum square, the base is aluminum w.rubber feet, the digital counter (with reset) goes at least to 5 digits and uses a photo-optic trigger for accuracy, the 12v dc motor has reverse and on/off switches and a speed pot. it has a faster no-load 1825rpm compared to the no-load 1250rpm on the sidewinder. the thomas is notably smoother and quieter, too. i wound up a tele bridge pup in 2/3rds the time it would have taken the sidewinder. the pic below was sent to me by the builder during its construction, and is not complete. i'll post some pics of my machine tomorrow. anyone interested in learning more about the excellent Thomas Winder can contact me directly - rob@frettech.com

[Chris Turner]

Looks nice!

[JCrab]

Rob, post this in the beginners corner.. Looks sweet

[David Schwab]

Nice looking winder. Obviously based on the Schatten, but made like the Schatten should have been made.

[edit] since photos were removed I'lll add some:

[David Schwab]

trust me dude, this mutha ain't based on no krap schat-tan. not at all.

Yes, it is. It's the exact same layout, even with the rectangular bars to hold the bobbins. Why not round platens? It's made better, but it's the exact same layout. The "Sidewinder" was also an improved Schatten clone.

Look, the original eBay listing is titled:

SCHATTEN STYLE PICKUP WINDER: THOMAS DESIGN M1,FT SWITCH & ADAPTER INCLUDED. | eBay

So clearly they agree.

I mean there's no point in reinventing the wheel, but there are other winders that look totally different. I'm not criticizing this winder, just stating an obvious fact.

So as you see here, we have the "winding tower" in the back, with the two rectangular aluminum platens to attach the bobbins on either side.

The Schatten also has the optical trigger for the front mounted counter.



The differences are it's made of metal and not plastic (although mine is steel because it's an older one), and it has a nice metal base instead of laminated particle board.

It's also nice having the controls out front, and clearly the motor is better, etc. But it's a Schatten clone. They even said so.

My point is that design is not new, and it's clearly derived from the Schatten, but made better, which was my original statement. This one looks like its worth the money, while I feel the Schatten is not.

As an example, something like this is a totally different design:

[Rob DiStefano]

"schattan clone"??? what ARE you talking about????

saying that because a thomas *looks* lke a schatten means nothing. almost all winders are a box with a motor and some form of counter - reed, optic, etc. the schattan is as simple a planform as necessity needs to house the motor and counter, and so are most others. however, it's what's inside that counts and how it performs. i've had a schatten, and *for me* there is no comparing that krap to a sidewinder or thomas. ymmv.

dude, you've to got joking to compare even the look of a multi thousand dollar ingrid commercial coil winder to ANY "hobby" coil winder.

[big_teee]

Hey guys what difference does it make?
Peace,
T

[StarryNight]

I like the design idea of having two bars for wire stops. This would remove some resetting when switching out different bobbins. I guess you could even install a third rod if needed. Also putting the pot in the front rather than the top seems like a sensible idea. Looks nice a portable. I'm currently building a new winder with DC motor and prox sensor counter. I don't think it will look as handsome as this one but of course the cost will be much less. Other than putting fins on one side to cool you down while you wind, I still can't see the advantage of having two bobbin mounts. I have trouble concentrating when winding one bobbin let alone two! Maybe an auto-traverse setup down the road? I'm so looking forward to a smooth and quiet winder! Must be nice!

[David Schwab]

"schattan clone"??? what ARE you talking about????

saying that because a thomas *looks* lke a schatten means nothing. almost all winders are a box with a motor and some form of counter - reed, optic, etc. the schattan is as simple a planform as necessity needs to house the motor and counter, and so are most others. however, it's what's inside that counts and how it performs. i've had a schatten, and *for me* there is no comparing that krap to a sidewinder or thomas. ymmv.

dude, you've to got joking to compare even the look of a multi thousand dollar ingrid commercial coil winder to ANY "hobby" coil winder.

Why are you so defensive about this thing? Did you build it? Are you selling them? Does it belong to your mom? Chill out, ok?

You came on here hawking the Sidewinder from what I remember.

It's based on the Schatten. It's not an original design. They even said so.

Saying it's a clone of the Schatten doesn't take away from the fact that it appears to be made much better. Personaly I would change a few things on it that were slavishly copied, like the rectangular platens. I've been using a Schatten for the past six years, so I know how they work, and guess what, it's not a hobby winder since I wind pickups full time on the thing.

But it is over priced and under powered. But I took care of that. If this was out at the time I would have bought this. But I would have changed a few things on this too.

My new winder won't be anything like either of these.

And stop calling people dude, it makes you sound like you are 13 years old.

[David Schwab]

I like the design idea of having two bars for wire stops. This would remove some resetting when switching out different bobbins. I guess you could even install a third rod if needed. Also putting the pot in the front rather than the top seems like a sensible idea. Looks nice a portable. I'm currently building a new winder with DC motor and prox sensor counter. I don't think it will look as handsome as this one but of course the cost will be much less. Other than putting fins on one side to cool you down while you wind, I still can't see the advantage of having two bobbin mounts. I have trouble concentrating when winding one bobbin let alone two! Maybe an auto-traverse setup down the road? I'm so looking forward to a smooth and quiet winder! Must be nice!

I don't see where the two bars is useful at all. I prefer having a single bar. Less junk in your way. It only takes a few seconds to adjust the stops.

But it looks like a nicely made machine for hand guided winding.

[Rob DiStefano]

the twin bar thing is useless for me as well. i've collaborated with him on building another machine more to my requirements.

[StarryNight]

noted, thanks...

the twin bar thing is useless for me as well.

[rjb]

Saying it's a clone of the Schatten doesn't take away from the fact that it appears to be made much better.

Semantics. To some, "clone" implies "inferior copy".

And stop calling people dude, it makes you sound like you are 13 years old.

OK, Dad.

[Stratz]

Unless they're somehow welded in place, all you would need to do to remove one of the rods is loosen the outer stops and take it out.

Nice hand winder but $300 is a bit steep IMO.

[Rob DiStefano]

... I have trouble concentrating when winding one bobbin let alone two! Maybe an auto-traverse setup down the road? I'm so looking forward to a smooth and quiet winder! Must be nice!

just finished a winding session using the thomas m2 - a stacked tele bridge, 2 vintage teles for bridge, a trio calibrated strat set and a special way overwound neck strat. i really like this machine. it's very very quiet, easy to listen to radio or hold a normal conversation. also, i'm used to 1300rpm with the sidewinder and this puppy flies at over 1800rpm. pups are now in the vacuum wax bath. life is good, er, dude. sorry. "dude" is typically acceptable veribage around guitar related forums. it's a vernacular salutation that's typically endearing and yes, even hexigenarians use it since for some of us it was a large part of our musical culture from many decades ago. dude!

[David Schwab]

Semantics. To some, "clone" implies "inferior copy".

Noun: a person or thing regarded as identical to another

Verb: make an identical copy of.

No reason to think inferior, and clearly this clone is better. But it's the same basic design, same as a Lakland is a clone of a Fender.

[David Schwab]

just finished a winding session using the thomas m2 - a stacked tele bridge, 2 vintage teles for bridge, a trio calibrated strat set and a special way overwound neck strat. i really like this machine. it's very very quiet, easy to listen to radio or hold a normal conversation. also, i'm used to 1300rpm with the sidewinder and this puppy flies at over 1800rpm. pups are now in the vacuum wax bath. life is good, er, dude. sorry. "dude" is typically acceptable veribage around guitar related forums. it's a vernacular salutation that's typically endearing and yes, even hexigenarians use it since for some of us it was a large part of our musical culture from many decades ago. dude!

That's OK, I was busting your chops! Dude.

Seriously though, this is a nice looking winder. I was just pointing out that it's the same layout as a Schatten, but better. The better part is important since the Schatten has some short comings, but is otherwise a usable design.

[Rob DiStefano]

not meaning to beat what is already a rancid and seemingly festering dead horse - ALL "hobby" coil winders are based on the same concept - a motor and a counter. how many different box designs can one invent to stick in those basic components? not many, so let's all get it straight - the thomas, the sidewinder, and whatever home brews are out there are all essentially the same - a motor and a counter. what the box looks like is totally immaterial. what's inside the box is all that matters, and how those components perform.

so, no - the thomas is not a "clone" of the schatten. that'd be like saying a v/w bug with a porsche engine is the same as a box stock bug. that's it. y'all can now close this thread, it's run its course of usefulness.

[David Schwab]

Well some home brews are based on lathes. Some other home brews don't have the platens on both sides. I can show you more home brews that don't look like the Schatten than those that do.

And yes the Thomas is a clone like many guitars are clones of Strats, even if they change the design.

The fact that Thomas said it was based on the Schatten proves this. You can bold all the words you want and you are still wrong. It's VERY obvious were the inspiration for that winder came from, even down to how its mounted. And that's OK.

One thing they should have copied is the wire guides being mounted in the center, and not on the ends. That makes it easier to get the bobbin off the winder and not have the wire guide mount in there way, which it is there. I can list a few other things as well.

And why do you care anyway? That's the part I don't get. Be defensive over something that matters and that belongs to you.

[StarryNight]

There's also winders made from electric drills. I remember seeing a YT vid of a guy winding on a record player; another where the platen was attached right on the side of a sewing machine. Mine certainly doesn't look anything like the Schatten design (I'm assuming Schatten was the first with this layout) and the way I wind pickups is probably different from someone else because of the idiosyncracies inherent in my winder. The word "design" is worth focusing on rather than "clone". How something is designed makes it different or similar from something else. Over the entire breadth of designs in winders I would say this one and the Schatten are very similar. Are there differences? probably. But looking at all the details of dimensions, layout, use, method of mounting and winding, I would say there are more similarities than differences. If the Schatten hadn't been invented would this winder exist as is? And there's nothing wrong with improving on a design. I don't know what all the fuss is about.

[David Schwab]

the fuss is about semantics and a person with an attiitude. i'm sorry i started this thread and came back to this forum - it still the same and hasn't changed in years. i'm outta here.

Rob you are the only person here with an attitude.

Should I post the rude message you just sent me?

No one here understands why you have yourself all worked up over this machine. You posted a winder you bought and like. That's cool. That's what this section is for. Now apparently you have something going with the person who built it, which must be why you posted your personal email so people can get info. Thats not so cool. You aren't supposed to use this section to see wares. We have the flea market for that.

Then you get bent out of shape because I pointed out that it's based on the Schatten, as if that's an awful thing, since you spent part of your first post to bad mouth the Schatten.

Clearly you have too much invested emotionally in this winder. Buddy, it's a machine. No one is talking about your mother here and no one is saying bad things about this winder.

Get overt it already. I'm not deleting this thread since people might find the winder info interesting.

[copperheadroads]

I figured the two bars were for winding in the opposite direction

[David Schwab]

I figured the two bars were for winding in the opposite direction

I don't understand their use. You wind in the opposite direction on the left side of the machine.

You only need one bar. Look at the photo of the Schatten above.

maybe the machine reverses direction? You still only need one bar. I only use the right side on my machine because the left side of the axle is checked into my drill to power the winder.

[Jim Shine]

Dude, it is just is tool, don't get so bent. Holmes was right to call it a Schatten copy, because it is.

[David King]

Some folks need to smoke more pot, some maybe a bit less..?

[davos]

Those 2 arms look like an upgrade in my eyes (I use a Shattern). The bar on the shattern is only held in place right in the center which means you gotta keep an eye on it and keep the one small grub screw on tight otherwise you get a bit of a wobble. Seems that it would be more sturdy on the Thomas, although I can see it getting in the way easily.

Someone needs to make a winder with an LED light on a stalk mounted on it so you can backlight the coils when you wind to see what you're doing. Oh and a polarity tester...and a bottle opener!

[David Schwab]

Those 2 arms look like an upgrade in my eyes (I use a Shattern). The bar on the shattern is only held in place right in the center which means you gotta keep an eye on it and keep the one small grub screw on tight otherwise you get a bit of a wobble. Seems that it would be more sturdy on the Thomas, although I can see it getting in the way easily.

Someone needs to make a winder with an LED light on a stalk mounted on it so you can backlight the coils when you wind to see what you're doing. Oh and a polarity tester...and a bottle opener!

It certainly is an upgrade. The Schatten is a good design, but with some shortcomings due to inadequate hardware. This fixes that.

I disagree about the center mounting of the wire guide bar. I like that better, and mine has never come lose. The way they have the bar mounted at the ends will be in your way when you place and remove a bobbin on the winder. You will have to pass in under the bar. So the Schatten method is better.

I have a rubber refrigerator magnet stuck to the front of my winder to hold the 2 hex wrenches. So even if the grub screw came lose, it takes a second to tighten it. I've never had to tighten it. You can put some Locktite on it if you want.

As far as lighting, I have a desk lamp mounted to my Schatten's base, so I can swivel it over the bobbins when I'm winding. You don't want a back light, you want light from above. That illuminates the wire going to the bobbin. Then I can swivel the lamp over to my soldering area next to the winder.

I also have an LED reading light on a stalk to illuminate the counter. So any new winder should have an illuminated counter.

[davos]

I have to remove my long bar once a month or so on the Shattern, the wire wears little marks into the soft metal so I have to polish the bar to remove them otherwise it sticks. I'll try something like Locktite, thanks for the idea.

I use one of those twisty LED lights that I screwed onto the back of the winder. Mine is above and behind the coil, you are right David, the light source needs to be above. Hard to rely on natural light with the English summertime I have

I noticed that the Thomas winder guy is in the process of uploading some videos of it in action onto youtube. It looks good, however he only ever turns the speed up about halfway so I can't tell how fast the winder actually goes. I'd like to see it in action actually winding so I can see if the load slows the speed down under tension like the Shattern does - Its a well known fact that you can stop the shattern just by holding the wire tightly..

[David Schwab]

I have to remove my long bar once a month or so on the Shattern, the wire wears little marks into the soft metal so I have to polish the bar to remove them otherwise it sticks. I'll try something like Locktite, thanks for the idea.

They must have changed what the bar is made from. Mine is steel. I have the older machine with the steel enclosure too.

I use one of those twisty LED lights that I screwed onto the back of the winder. Mine is above and behind the coil, you are right David, the light source needs to be above. Hard to rely on natural light with the English summertime I have

My 54 year old eyes need as much light as I can get!

I noticed that the Thomas winder guy is in the process of uploading some videos of it in action onto youtube. It looks good, however he only ever turns the speed up about halfway so I can't tell how fast the winder actually goes. I'd like to see it in action actually winding so I can see if the load slows the speed down under tension like the Shattern does - Its a well known fact that you can stop the shattern just by holding the wire tightly..

Yeah, the Schatten uses a rather small DC motor. I've heard it's a VCR rewind motor.

The speed control died in my winder a couple of years ago. I thought it was the motor at the time, and got a replacement from Schatten. The new motor seemed fine, and that started running very slow again like the first one. So it turned out it was the motor speed control that went. Since I had a lot of pickups to wind I needed to get the winder working, so I checked my DeWalt variable speed drill to the left axle. It worked so well that I have been using it that way ever since! It was supposed to be temporary, but since I plan on making a new winder I just left it. It runs MUCH faster, and there's no way to stop it by pinching the wire. I forgot that after I had started using the drill to power it, and went to grab the platen to stop the winder one day like I used to do... man that hurt!

Not pretty, but it gets the job done!

[David King]

What if the back light LED could be strobed in time with the winder speed and then slowly rotated to show you exactly how the wire is laying down?

Also it's an axle not and axil in English...

[David Schwab]

What if the back light LED could be strobed in time with the winder speed and then slowly rotated to show you exactly how the wire is laying down?

That might make you dizzy if you wind too fast!

Also it's an axle not and axil in English...

It's the damn auto spell correction in OS X Lion. If I'm not careful it changes words to I don't know what! I have to look at the keys half the time, so I'm not seeing words changed to some other words. I think I'll just turn that off...

Axil is actually part of a plant.

[Chris Turner]

What if the back light LED could be strobed in time with the winder speed and then slowly rotated to show you exactly how the wire is laying down?

Also it's an axle not and axil in English...

Like the timing light for an automobile... I like the idea.

[Stratz]

What if the back light LED could be strobed in time with the winder speed and then slowly rotated to show you exactly how the wire is laying down?

Thats actually an excellent idea David. I wouldn't have to stop the winder to get a good look at the coil shape.

An optical trigger can handle the winders RPM so I wonder if there's some type of gizmo that can be used as a strobe.

Anybody have any suggestions?

[Stratz]

Not pretty, but it gets the job done!

Hey David, Whats the blue tape for on your winding arm if you don't mind me asking?

I use double sided foam tape as you do. One thing that I have to remember is to remove the tape soon after I'm done winding or it can be a real bear to get off if left on the arm for a few days.

Rob.

[David Schwab]

Hey David, Whats the blue tape for on your winding arm if you don't mind me asking?

This is why:

One thing that I have to remember is to remove the tape soon after I'm done winding or it can be a real bear to get off if left on the arm for a few days.

Makes it a breeze to remove. I get maybe 6-10 bobbins wound and then have to replace it. But still, it gets hard to take off.