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Thread: Legalized

  1. #36
    Supporting Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    Mark made some good points, but I am always concerned that there is no standard for how well someone must drive. it is fair to say if your reflexes are slowed by 10-20%, then you are not driving your best. But what if your slowed 20% reflexes are better than many people's 100%? My dear departed mother one time hit a parked car while driving down the street, completely sober. There is no standard for how good your reflexes must be. The driving tests I have seen find if you can pilot a vehicle in very basic traffic situations and then parallel park. And even that is usually only done as you apply for your first license.
    So how DOES a system, ideally acting in the publics interest, decriminalize a mind altering substance AND regulate it's use as it relates to public safety? I suppose there doesn't NEED to be a "standard" because, as you noted, we're not all the same. I suppose a standard is set with the driving test though. If you can pass the test, you can drive. Being capable of that standard means you can only have a BAC of .08% (State of Washington. Ca. is .05% I think.). Short of testing on a scale rather than pass/fail I don't know a good way around this. I suppose your individual scale rating could be indicated on your licence. As in, if you ranked a 1, 2 or 3 you are only allowed a BAC of .08%, 5 and 6 are allowed .1%, 7 and 8, .12% and 9 and 10 gets .14%.?. I imagine there would be a lot of legal court issues. Not to mention the distinctly non PC practice of allowing privilege to some for their relative betterness over others. It creates too many political problems. Ok, so lets attack it from a different angle. How about we make the test harder and bump the BAC to .12% for everyone? Oh,.. Wait a minute. Then we would be denying licenses for a reason we'd have to call "relative incompetence" or something. And while I think that would be a hoot, it raises the same problems as the scale system would. I just don't see it happening. I don't think it's unmanageable at all for reasonable, thinking people, but how many people are reasonable and thinking? Nope. We'll get the same sort of mandatory government allocations we always have. That system where we're all brought down to and restricted by the lowest common denominator rather than any sort of scale or median because, while it may not be the best, it IS the easiest way to do something like this safely. Because, remember, it isn't always reasonable and thinking people that regulate and enforce these sorts of things. Welcome to the order. Please stand in line D.
    "I've heard magic defined as "a technology you don't understand". By that aphorism, the folks in this forum are practicing wizards, able to summon AND control the lightning demon, and make charms to allow others to use the demon in certain ways." R.G.

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  2. #37
    Supporting Member The Dude's Avatar
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    One of my friends and former bandmates is a DJ/ad guy at a local radio station, and has been for years. To show the effects of alcohol on driving, they staged a radio show wherein drivers had to complete an obstacle course early in the day. Then, having drinks throughout the day, they had to periodically retest on the obstacle course. Two of my other bandmates were in the cast of drinking drivers. As the day went on, they actually drove better after multiple drinks and knocked over less cones. I didn't know about it until I talked to them the next day, but the station and highway patrolman monitoring the event actually had to lie on the air so as not to encourage people to drink and drive. The actual results of the day were never known by the public.
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  3. #38
    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    the station and highway patrolman monitoring the event actually had to lie on the air so as not to encourage people to drink and drive. The actual results of the day were never known by the public.
    Isn't that what always happens when the government gets involved?

  4. #39
    Senior Member Enzo's Avatar
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    That was the exact plot of an episode of WKRP In Cincinnati
    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

  5. #40
    Supporting Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Well... Just to get my best "turd in the punchbowl" on

    It's probable that while their driving skills were prohibitively impaired with respect to reaction time and new circumstances their motor skill memory and familiarity the obstacle course improved with every run. Makes perfect sense. That, and they started the test in the morning! I'll bet the results would have been VERY different if they would have tested everyone drunken first the evening before and then tested them sober on the same course the following evening.
    "I've heard magic defined as "a technology you don't understand". By that aphorism, the folks in this forum are practicing wizards, able to summon AND control the lightning demon, and make charms to allow others to use the demon in certain ways." R.G.

    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

  6. #41
    Senior Member Enzo's Avatar
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    At least they let them get drunk naturally. I have seen tests where they test sober, then feed them a super drink equivalent to a bunch of drinks. Of course it hits them all at once like a shovel to the face. How can any measurements be valid like that?
    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

  7. #42
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    There is accuracy, and there is reaction time. As I keep noting, anything that lengthens reaction time will compromise safety on the road, even if accuracy is maintained. It's not how accurately one assesses the situation at one's own speed. It's how quickly one can assess a situation that came out of nowhere and demands a quick response. That's one of the reasons why there is concern about elderly drivers. (I suspect it will also be an eventual source of concern with respect to workplace injuries stemming from weed use.)

    As such, obstacle courses are not an especially good indicator of impact on driving. If the source of impairment is severe, yes they will show impact. But there is nothing unpredictable or changing about an obstacle course that requires one to rapidly assess the situation, identify a course of action, and react. It is worth noting that a considerable share of driving fatalities involve responding to impromptu unpredictable situations.

    Again, I cannot emphasize enough that this is not any sort of argument against legalization. It's simply a question of identifying safe practices and standards for safe use.

  8. #43
    Old Timer tedmich's Avatar
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    Enzo,

    I only hoped that the aging process would approximate a pleasant drug experience; perhaps these are the mythical "flashbacks" we were threatened with that sadly never materialized??

    I am 100% in agreement on the inaccurate meaning of hallucinogens, even having used several of your descriptions near verbatim over the years.

    As to actually seeing something that isn't there two "outers' come to mind; DMT and the legal* salvia divinorum.

    * everywhere in US except Louisiana, Missouri, Tennessee, Delaware, Florida, Illinois, North Dakota, and Minnesota

  9. #44
    Senior Member Enzo's Avatar
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    Flashbacks, the permanent trip you never come down from, and the other things they always said would happen. My mother used to tell me not to make a face because it might stick that way. They used to tell us if you used heroin even once you'd automatically become addicted.
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  10. #45
    Supporting Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    Flashbacks, the permanent trip you never come down from, and the other things they always said would happen. My mother used to tell me not to make a face because it might stick that way. They used to tell us if you used heroin even once you'd automatically become addicted.
    A lot of the misnomers and fallacies about drug use obviously came from an era when it was people that didn't use the drugs making assumptions rooted in fear and with great misunderstanding. Anyone remember REEFER MADNESS.?. All these otherwise "normal" and good meaning people start acting like crack head maniacs and asylum residents. I don't know if it's information technologies or the fact that drug use has matured in our cultures (that is, all the hippies grew up ). Maybe both because in old movies drunks still acted like drunks because alcohol was a better known inebriant. There's a better understanding about the effects of different drugs now. Even among those that don't use them. LSD and psilocybin actually ARE hallucinogenic at a high enough dosage. I've seen things that weren't there on LSD. Just the normal stuff like the hair on my arm growing or looking in the mirror (always a no no on LSD BTW) and seeing my face melting. I suppose the visual distortions like "trails" on moving objects could also be considered hallucinations since they're not actually there, but you ARE seeing them.

    As to heroin, there's mental addiction (probably more accurately called compulsion) and physical addiction. Opiates ARE very addictive. And they offer a high that for some is so fine that once is enough to make them a card carrier.

    Also, I made a face and it stuck that way.
    "I've heard magic defined as "a technology you don't understand". By that aphorism, the folks in this forum are practicing wizards, able to summon AND control the lightning demon, and make charms to allow others to use the demon in certain ways." R.G.

    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

  11. #46
    Senior Member Enzo's Avatar
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    I crossed my eyes and they stuck that way. Of course now I can look both ways when crossing a street without turning my head.

    I consider trails as visual distortion. SOmething not really there would be a person entering the room, or a large zebra driving a car. or a fire hydrant turning into an ostrich and flying away. Actually, trails are always there, but your brain ignores them...normally.

    Reefer Madness was great. I looked and looked, but never in my life saw a joint with "marihuana" printed on it.
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  12. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    As to heroin, there's mental addiction (probably more accurately called compulsion) and physical addiction. Opiates ARE very addictive. And they offer a high that for some is so fine that once is enough to make them a card carrier.
    Read up on "conditioned drug tolerances". The Pavlovian model of learned drug tolerances is a powerful model that is able to predict many of the phenomena associated with addictions, and especially overdose deaths, that conventional medical or psychiatric approaches do not. I was fortunate enough to have had one of the early researchers in the field as a prof (Shep Siegel). conditioned drug tolerance - Google Scholar

    One of the corollaries of the Pavlovian model is that drug administration with a more punctate effect (i.e., the drug effect is instant and has an obvious "on" and "off" rather than gradual onset and diminution) tends to be more "addictive". That is, drug effects that are like flicking a switch, develop conditioned tolerances more quickly, in exactly the same way that bell plus food-within-seconds yields a faster association and more drooling than bell plus food coming along bit by bit over the course of 20 minutes. It's why orally administered morphine takes much longer to develop a tolerance and need for higher doses than injected morphine. It's also why some ways of ingesting cocaine are more "addictive" than others, and why quitting smoking is so damn hard, compared to smoking a pipe.

    Are there "addictive personalities"? yes and no. There are certainly folks who experience more pronounced (and possibly quicker) effects of some drugs than others. And there are some folks who have a more difficult time with impulse control than others, and who respond more to the physical sensations of emotion. Both of those can result in greater likelihood of drug dependencies. But I am very skeptical of the notion of an addictive personality, per se.

    I think it worth noting that virtually any animal research examining psychoactive substances that can result in tolerances and addictions demonstrates that initial administrations of the substance are aversive. To the extent that we can use terms like "enjoy" with monkeys, dogs or rats, they do not enjoy initial administrations (even with carefully calculated dosages) of alcohol, cocaine, heroin, nicotine, caffeine, etc., and will actually engage in work to avoid subsequent administration of the same substance. I'll bet none of you here who smoke will declare that they actually "enjoyed" that first cigarette when they were younger.

  13. #48
    Supporting Member eschertron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hammer View Post
    I think it worth noting that virtually any animal research examining psychoactive substances that can result in tolerances and addictions demonstrates that initial administrations of the substance are aversive. To the extent that we can use terms like "enjoy" with monkeys, dogs or rats, they do not enjoy initial administrations (even with carefully calculated dosages) of alcohol, cocaine, heroin, nicotine, caffeine, etc., and will actually engage in work to avoid subsequent administration of the same substance. I'll bet none of you here who smoke will declare that they actually "enjoyed" that first cigarette when they were younger.
    Rites of passage involve some kind of discomfort (I'm thinking of head-butting among the species of horned/antlered animals, like mountain sheep or caribou), but leave it to humans to ritualize it with cigarettes, tattoos, and piercings. Of course it hurts! But you want to be in the club, don't you?
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  14. #49
    CNC Trial by Fire kayakerca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_H View Post
    Well, three days into the new legislation, and there is no visible cloud of pot smoke over Las Vegas. The response, as far as I can tell is quite positive. The anti cannabis stigma has been pretty weak here for a while. 20 years ago, any amount, or any paraphernalia related was a felony. If you were busted with as much as a seed, you faced dire consequences. The weed wasn't nearly as dangerous as getting caught with some. That's the best part of this new law. It frees up law enforcement to focus on crimes that have actual victims, and relieves the court system of enforcing laws that can't really benefit society. The biggest problem that remains is the federal government giving it a classification as a schedule 1 narcotic. This is only a matter of time. It's been fifty years since the "Summer of Love", it won't hurt to wait a little while longer. I don't drink, use tobacco, drop acid, smoke crack, abuse pharmaceuticals, drink soda pop, or screw around with any other 'street' drugs, but I enjoy cannabis.
    The big question the U.S. Fed is always is silent on is how cannabis earned itself a place on the schedule 1 narcotic list in the first place. Interestingly enough though, with my "drink" consumption at a 50 year low and all the other self abuse substances you list absent from my lifestyle (also absent are acetaminophen, ASA and ibuprofen) cannabis is my "supplement" of choice. Of course, living in here Canada as a medical cannabis guy for the past while, it's legal as well!
    Take Care,

    Jim. . .
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  15. #50
    Supporting Member The Dude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kayakerca View Post
    The big question the U.S. Fed is always is silent on is how cannabis earned itself a place on the schedule 1 narcotic list in the first place......
    Always follow the money. You need look only as far as the tobacco lobby.
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  16. #51
    CNC Trial by Fire kayakerca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hammer View Post
    A few responses:

    One of the biggest legal hurdles to address is what constitutes DUI when it comes to weed. That has two parts to it: figuring out what sorts of blood-THC levels can legitimately be deemed problematic or a driving safety risk, and coming up with a cost-effective, quick, valid, non-invasive way to assess what side of the line one is on, that can withstand court challenges.
    Funny, but we didn't need recreational legalization for reliable detection of THC levels in the blood to become an important issue. It's been an issue for a lot of years now, but the prospect of legalization has just brought it to the front of people's consciousness.
    Take Care,

    Jim. . .
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  17. #52
    Old Timer tedmich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    That was the exact plot of an episode of WKRP In Cincinnati
    I once took part in a contest where we dropped live turkeys to the crowd from a rented helicopter...on second thought maybe that wasn't me...
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  18. #53
    Senior Member Enzo's Avatar
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    "As god is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."


    The phone police are coming, we gotta get out of here...
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