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Thread: Speakers in Fender Twins

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    Speakers in Fender Twins

    I'm looking at a couple of different Fender Twin Combo amps and one has 2 Alnicos and the other has 2 Weber Blue Dogs.... any opinions out there about the difference between the two? Is one better than the other? Or is there a difference?

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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    Is one better than the other? Or is there a difference?
    What does better mean? Is steak better than lobster? Depends who you ask.

    Every speaker is different, two ceramic magnet speakers can be different as night and day. Two different alnico speakers can sound worlds apart. The bottom line is what YOUR ears prefer. it may not be what I prefer.
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    g1
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    The blue dogs are also alnico.
    So as Enzo suggested, see which is more in tune with your particular taste.
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    Supporting Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    "Alnico" is a rather ambiguous description of a speaker. If that's all the seller will say I would be suspect. The Blue Dog OTOH is a much respected speaker as ceramics go. I haven't tried them.

    EDIT: g1 is correct. The standard "Blue Dog" is an alnico speaker. Weber does make a ceramic Blue Dog that is also highly respected.
    "So I acquired it for the purpose of fixing it up - in case I run out of things to do with the rest of my life..." tubeswell

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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    A lot of amps are referred to as a "Twin". Do you mean one of the various versions of Twin Reverb, old tweed Twin, or some modern/reissue amp they call a Twin, a "red knobbed" Twin, an "Evil" Twin, etc. They all different. Also your application is a factor. If you want CLEAN with lots of overhead your selection will be different. If it's a pedal platform amp your selection will be different. Various genres will complicate your selection. Like was said earlier.. your ears are your guide and be sure that you are not getting more amp than you need. Many "Twins" are Lear Jet loud and ice pick to the head bright and clean.
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    Supporting Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    The Dawg has it. Don't drink the KoolAid! Any repro/clone/reissue/etc. of a coveted amp is still going to be made from parts that are subject to tolerance and variation in build ideology. All of this will change the way it sounds. There are plenty of really expensive mediocre amps on the market that don't sound as good as some production amps where the details have been worked out by a specialized team with cost averaged per unit. DON'T DRINK THE KOOLAID!!! Play through some amps and buy what you like. If you can't play through it, hear it and decide, don't buy it. Spending money won't make your playing sound better. Finding an amp that inspires you will. Regardless of the cost.

    I gave a little Boogie amp to a friend. A little Subway Blues, heavily modified by me. I was proud of how good I got it to sound. This guy is a gear hound. He had an opportunity to buy a refurbed original 65 Deluxe Reverb for a decent price. He plugged in and played for a bit and then told the guy "I've already got this tone beat at home." What could be more "holy grail" than a 65 Deluxe Reverb? But the reality set in for my friend when he realized he didn't have to spend $$$ when he already had a FREE amp that would give him the same thing.

    Parts is parts. Shop wise. Buy what sounds good to YOU and not whats hip or trendy. Play your guitar.
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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    FWIW all of these are "Twin speakers", all have been Factory supplied one time or another .
    And the list is NOT complete, it´s missing the Alnico jensens (P12N), the JBL D120 and a few more. Even some EV made ones, but not the modern cast frame huge magnet heavyweights, but "another Jensen C12N clone" , only made by EV:
    But here you find Jensen/CTS/Eminence/Rola (America)/Oxford/University/Utah and maybe some Pyle (not in order).

    12t6_code.jpg

    86eminence-code.jpg

    99eminence-code.jpg

    c12k-code.jpg

    cts-code.jpg

    pyle_code.jpg

    rola-code.jpg

    utah_code.jpg
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    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J M Fahey View Post
    But here you find Jensen/CTS/Eminence/Rola (America)/Oxford/University/Utah and maybe some Pyle (not in order).
    While you're listing, add some "Fender Special Design" Cerwin Vega 12's I found in a Twin one fine day. Probably the label was the specially designed part, also the orange paint like JBL D120-F's.
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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_Gnardo View Post
    While you're listing, add some "Fender Special Design" Cerwin Vega 12's I found in a Twin one fine day. Probably the label was the specially designed part, also the orange paint like JBL D120-F's.
    You are right and these must have been *heavy*



    This amp must have been impossible to lift:



    and thanks to your idea, by chance I found these Cetec-Gauss
    (2) 12" Cetec Gauss speakers. 8 ohms and rated 400 watts each. These speakers are HEAVY! I got them to use in my '72 Fender Twin Reverb since they were an available upgrade back then.
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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    Wow, don't drop the amp, or bounce it in the back of a truck over train tracks. All that weight in the speaker could rip the mounting screws right out of the baffle.
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    Speakers

    I'll try to give a little more info... I'm wanting to make a bid on one of 2 amps. Both are Fender 57 Tweed Custom Twin 212 40Watts. I'm also curious as to whether after I purchase one of them if I would be able to "tweak" it and give it a little boost in power for gigging. Unfortunately I'm having trouble posting images on here or I would post pics of what I'm looking at.

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    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LarryM2 View Post
    I'll try to give a little more info... I'm wanting to make a bid on one of 2 amps. Both are Fender 57 Tweed Custom Twin 212 40Watts. I'm also curious as to whether after I purchase one of them if I would be able to "tweak" it and give it a little boost in power for gigging. Unfortunately I'm having trouble posting images on here or I would post pics of what I'm looking at.
    The unfortunate truth is . . . nobody here has an answer to your question. The only way to decide "which speakers" is to personally audition both amps simultaneously and figure out which one makes YOU happy. You can scan the fanboy websites and get plenty of second and third hand opinions, but only YOU can know for sure.

    A little more power for gigging? AFAIK these are tube-rectified amps. You could substitute solid state rectifiers, maybe gain 20% more power that way, but the sound quality will definitely change and maybe not in the direction you like.

    Even if you could double the power, it's only a couple dB louder, just enough to notice. An awful lot of guitarists these days are hitting the stage with amps in the 12 to 30 watt range and sounding perfectly good. If you need more, mic up the speaker and dial your guitar into your monitor mix. Also, the biggest changes you can easily make are by changing speakers. The speakers you have mentioned have excellent reputations, but again the only way YOU can know for sure whether another is better somehow is to personally audition other speakers.
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    g1
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    If loudness is a big concern, pay close attention to the sensitivity spec. on the speaker choices. You can make big gains there without altering the amplifier part.
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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LarryM2 View Post
    I'll try to give a little more info... I'm wanting to make a bid on one of 2 amps. Both are Fender 57 Tweed Custom Twin 212 40Watts. I'm also curious as to whether after I purchase one of them if I would be able to "tweak" it and give it a little boost in power for gigging. Unfortunately I'm having trouble posting images on here or I would post pics of what I'm looking at.
    Is this a reissue, a boutique clone, or a real vintage '57? If it's the real deal vintage amp l would be trying to find some period correct frames and have them reckoned/reguassed by Weber. The only reason to spent the money to own that amp is to have it sound like that amp imho. Unless you just want pictures and bragging rights, lol!

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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Twin and 40W in the same phrase make me think of "Low Power Twins", as rare as hen´s teeth and so incredibly expensive, not because they are that good but because they are unobtanium.

    Now you talking about *TWO* of them, subject to bidding and at the same time, and not mentioning the horrible price tag makes me think those are some of the reissues , allegedly reintroduced to please Eric Clapton and not really the same as the old stuff anyway.

    Original ones always were scarce because they quickly evolved into the 80W 4 tube Tweed Twin.
    That´s why real ones are almost impossible to find while there are hundreds modern clones.

    In any case "Alnicos" might mean modern Italian Jensens and in the other case, modern Weber speakers (also Alnicos).

    You can simply copy the site address and paste it here inside your message, we click and open it outside the Forum itself, so it works all the time.

    As of power, 40W is way more than needed, as mentioned above live shows are played everyday with 20/30/40/40W amps with no issue.

    And both the Italian Jensens and the Webers are loud punchy efficient speakers, that´s way more important than getting, say, 10 extra Watts by dubious means..
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    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by olddawg View Post
    Is this a reissue, a boutique clone, or a real vintage '57? If it's the real deal vintage amp l would be trying to find some period correct frames and have them reckoned/reguassed by Weber. The only reason to spent the money to own that amp is to have it sound like that amp imho. Unless you just want pictures and bragging rights, lol!
    Looks like reissues. At $2000 I'd build my own from kit bits. The real thing? I have a couple customers who have 'em. They trade in the $9000-12000 range, OW, rock star prices! Unless you get a lucky find, you're dreaming if you think you'll pick one up for 2 grand. And lucky finds do happen, one customer ran across a 1953 Twin Amp at a garage sale. All it needed was a fresh AC cable and one resistor changed - I did that for him. He paid ten bucks for the amp. for him!
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    Supporting Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_Gnardo View Post
    ... one customer ran across a 1953 Twin Amp at a garage sale... He paid ten bucks for the amp. for him!
    Disagree!

    Would YOU take somebody's 10k worth of amp for ten bucks? Or would you tell them to go get it appraised? I'll admit to taking advantage of a good deal due to ignorance at thrift stores or garage sales, but I think there's a legitimate gray area in the smaller dollar amounts. Sort of like letting your buddy walk into the bathroom after you blow it up. FUNNY. But the pranking has to end somewhere shy of letting him drive your car even though you know it has no brakes.
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    A friend of a friend asked if I could sell an "old Fender bass amp" for $200 for her. I say it depends, and ask for pictures. She sends me a pic of a dead stock 66 Princeton Reverb w. a C10N in it, period-correct. I politely (regretfully?) tell her she has an $1800 amp, then hope she'll lemme have it for $600... no luck. Tried to sell it, but nobody's got the dough... then she calls and asks for it back, when she moved to CA. Probably ended up in a collection; another one bites the dust.

    Justin
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    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    Disagree!

    Would YOU take somebody's 10k worth of amp for ten bucks? Or would you tell them to go get it appraised? I'll admit to taking advantage of a good deal due to ignorance at thrift stores or garage sales, but I think there's a legitimate gray area in the smaller dollar amounts. Sort of like letting your buddy walk into the bathroom after you blow it up. FUNNY. But the pranking has to end somewhere shy of letting him drive your car even though you know it has no brakes.
    Looks like watching all those Davey & Goliath TV shows paid off. Goliath, the dog, in a goofy deep voice: "well I dunno Davey, that's not the right thing to do... " Brought to you by the Lutheran Council. Claymation by Clokey, same team that brought us Gumby. Stories of learning to make ethical decisions, just before the usual parade of Saturday morning cartoon dreck in the 60's & 70's & maybe reruns later on. Read all about D&G here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davey_and_Goliath

    Hey, it's a garage sale. If the buyer doesn't move on the lucky price right this second, the next guy will. This is the Noo Yawk metropolitan area. Law of the jungle. Eat or be eaten. I can also pitch you some "the one that got away" stories. Plus, at the time he got the amp it was "only" valued at $4000. I can see if it's a friend or relative, and there's time for them to take the item off market, get it appraised & sold thru more profitable channels, fine.

    Now back to the show in progress. "Okay Davey."

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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Do you think Guitar Center or any other shop would have told owners asking for $10 or $200 respectively: "no, you're wrong, here's $2000 or $1200 ..... " ?

    Think again.

    Besides, *real* price is original price (which what "everybody else" charged for a similar amp) , updated to current US Dollars by the inflation coefficient, and depreciated by old age, parts decay, etc.
    So not much, just what any old stuff same age woud be worth today.

    Anything above, and we might be talking 100X thar "real" price is pure Mojo, Magic, smoke and mirrors, and that only for a very limited part of the population (basically old farts like us).

    Those same amps, fresh made in the form of reissues, arguably sounding as good as the original ones (when they were new that is) and safer, with better components, etc. , stay months unsold at GC and similar places for lack of interest.

    And kids (the bulk of the Guitar and amplifier market) wouldn´t buy them even at $600, go figure.

    *WE* like them because , say, Lightnin´Hopkins or some similar prehistoric cat we know used them, kids have no clue about them or wouldn´t care anyway and instead would prefer whatever Nickelback or the current Dying Foetus Skull Full of Maggots style Death band is playing.

    US2999 or 9/12K is as proposterous as $10, just the other way.

    $200 is fine, you should have bought it yourself.

    As usual, I don´t place much value in Magic.
    fender aims at that, when they mention the reissue
    includes newly sourced yellow coupling capacitors chosen for authentic vintage Fender tone
    Well, that was a important factor ... did they care to use paper in oil instead of Polyester? ... I guess not.
    Did they include the Bluesy sounding Death Cap? .... ditto.

    More imórtnt question: did they sell many Reissues?

    I guess not that many
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    Supporting Member The Dude's Avatar
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    I can't tell you how many times I've heard (paraphrasing), "I know it's not worth much. It's so old it still has tubes in it."
    “Yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.”

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    Juan,

    Being a broke student myself, I knew she could sell it o a collector for a lot more, ans I'm the one who has to live with my conscience for ripping off an ignorant customer. Now, had it been a music shop, no problem from me ripping them off if they don't do their homework.

    Years ago, before I knew anything, an unscrupulous music store employee sold my ignorant parents a first-generation Valvestate as a "tube amp," to the tune of $1,000 used. That experience, being ripped off because of their ignorance, stuck with me, and I just can't return the favor to those who are ignorant of what they have. Yes, I could have got a Princeton for $200, but... I just didn't have the heart.

    Justin
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    Supporting Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Oh, I do get it. A fool and his money, yada, yada. All those previous generations of humans probably didn't get their DNA into this era by giving even breaks. And no, I don't believe in "every kid gets a trophy" or "we don't even keep score" for children's sports. Hell, I don't even believe in karma. But I do have the unfortunate "do the right thing" gene (though I'll grant that there's a big gray band through the middle of it ).

    When I was eighteen and looking for a used car I checked the classifieds early in the morning so I could be the first in on any deals. One morning I saw an ad that read (paraphrase) 1958 Imperial-some body damage-$800 ph###-###-#### Of course I called immediately and the sweet old lady on the phone said the car had been sitting for almost a decade because she doesn't drive and her husband bunged the fender on the side of the garage when he last parked it and figured it was a sign he shouldn't drive anymore. He had died and she decided to sell the car. I was at her door before 8:00 am. And there I was looking at a 1958 Chrysler Imperial WITH A HEMI that had always been garaged, had 82,000 original miles painted Stardust Blue and just a five inch scuffy ding in the front, left fender. And $800 cash in my pocket and a little devil on my shoulder... I told her that it wouldn't be right for me to buy the car because it was worth a whole lot more than she was asking. I told her to get it appraised and not to fall for any fast talk others answering the ad might try. She told me I was a nice, young man, we said goodbye and I left. I saw the car in an add in Hemi magazine a month later for $8000. The phone number was different so I called it to check if some huckster had taken the ignorant old gal for a ride. It was her son, who had handled the issue since getting a call the day I went to see the car. It felt pretty good actually.
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    "So I acquired it for the purpose of fixing it up - in case I run out of things to do with the rest of my life..." tubeswell

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    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    I saw the car in an add in Hemi magazine a month later for $8000. The phone number was different so I called it to check if some huckster had taken the ignorant old gal for a ride. It was her son, who had handled the issue since getting a call the day I went to see the car. It felt pretty good actually.
    Wonder how much Sonny-boy gave Mom once he sold that gem. I'll bet . . . . . nothin'.



    Now once again, back to the show already in progress.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Thomas View Post
    I politely (regretfully?) tell her she has an $1800 amp, then hope she'll lemme have it for $600... no luck.
    Justin
    You did the right thing. In an increasingly unethical world, you did the right thing. A couple of thousand bucks is a lot of money right now, but in ten years, a hundred times as much money will probably have flowed through your hands, and $2000 from ten years ago will have virtually no impact on your life. But you will still know, till the day you die, that you did the right thing by the owner of that Princeton Reverb.

    If all of us begin to behave the way corporations do ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Corporation_(film) ), life will become a living hell for everyone.

    -Gnobuddy
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    Supporting Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnobuddy View Post
    If all of us begin to behave the way corporations do, life will become a living hell for everyone.
    You say that like it hasn't already happened?!? Ok... Maybe we don't ALL behave like that. But I think a disproportionate amount of the people that control many of your circumstances do. And that's almost the same thing because it forces people into a moral corner where they must eat or be eaten. I'm afraid it's an unfortunate consequence of the normal human condition for a percentage of the population. Trying to encourage people to behave differently is like asking a crappy dog to stop barking all the damn time.
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    "So I acquired it for the purpose of fixing it up - in case I run out of things to do with the rest of my life..." tubeswell

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Thomas View Post
    Juan,

    Being a broke student myself, I knew she could sell it o a collector for a lot more, ans I'm the one who has to live with my conscience for ripping off an ignorant customer. Now, had it been a music shop, no problem from me ripping them off if they don't do their homework.

    Years ago, before I knew anything, an unscrupulous music store employee sold my ignorant parents a first-generation Valvestate as a "tube amp," to the tune of $1,000 used. That experience, being ripped off because of their ignorance, stuck with me, and I just can't return the favor to those who are ignorant of what they have. Yes, I could have got a Princeton for $200, but... I just didn't have the heart.

    Justin
    I picked up a 1965 Epiphone acoustic Caballero at a garage sale back in the 90's for $5 and it was in really rough condition but solid as far as wood viability, no cracks or breaks. I had no idea at the time of the true value...I didn't research it until 6 months after I bought it. I had to put a new sleeve on one of the tuning machines and a new set of strings and it was ready to jam. Not that it really matters but at that time the value was around $600. I don't know what it is right now but I gave it to one of my sons anyway and he loves it. The original owners at the garage sale just wanted it gone, they didn't particularly like it or want if from my perspective while talking to them... so I don't feel bad at all about the deal.
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    I have ordered a https://www.zzounds.com/item--FEN0217300
    Fender '65 Twin Reverb Limited Edition Combo

    I know I'll catch a lot of grief from some hardliners for going reissue but I can't shell out multiple thousands for the original period amp. I've been reading and hearing that there are some kits out there that I can possibly install to make it "more original"... what say you on that? And 1 - 2 - 3..... Here we go!

  30. #30
    g1
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    I've got similar deals where I was unaware of the value at the time. But if I had been, I would have been uncomfortable enough to let the seller know.
    Certified Dotard

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    Supporting Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LarryM2 View Post
    I have ordered a https://www.zzounds.com/item--FEN0217300
    Fender '65 Twin Reverb Limited Edition Combo

    I know I'll catch a lot of grief from some hardliners for going reissue but I can't shell out multiple thousands for the original period amp. I've been reading and hearing that there are some kits out there that I can possibly install to make it "more original"... what say you on that? And 1 - 2 - 3..... Here we go!
    Wow! That is such a totally different amp/tone than the models you were looking at before.?. And, since you ordered it, you didn't get to play through it first to see if you liked it.?. Unless you've played that model elsewhere already I suppose. Anyway, very bold move. I hope you like it.
    "So I acquired it for the purpose of fixing it up - in case I run out of things to do with the rest of my life..." tubeswell

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    Wow! That is such a totally different amp/tone than the models you were looking at before.?. And, since you ordered it, you didn't get to play through it first to see if you liked it.?. Unless you've played that model elsewhere already I suppose. Anyway, very bold move. I hope you like it.
    Yes Chuck after doing more research I liked the '65 just as well and I have less concerns with it. And I should have mentioned that little detail about testing it out thoroughly at my local Guitar Center before I ordered it. I like doing business that way because I've never had an issue of returning something if for any reason if I'm not happy with it within a designated length of time... no questions asked. I could have gotten it quicker through Reverb, Sweetwater or Z's but I would not have as many choices or directions to go if something were to go wrong. So.... what do you think of the "kit" I mentioned in that same post? I don't know much about them other than they are available for "Reissue" amplifiers.

  33. #33
    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LarryM2 View Post
    Yes Chuck after doing more research I liked the '65 just as well and I have less concerns with it. And I should have mentioned that little detail about testing it out thoroughly at my local Guitar Center before I ordered it. I like doing business that way because I've never had an issue of returning something if for any reason if I'm not happy with it within a designated length of time... no questions asked. I could have gotten it quicker through Reverb, Sweetwater or Z's but I would not have as many choices or directions to go if something were to go wrong. So.... what do you think of the "kit" I mentioned in that same post? I don't know much about them other than they are available for "Reissue" amplifiers.
    Imhe... many times people simply like the sound of the various combinations of “issues” with vintage amps and the mojo involved. Component drift, aging speakers, etc. If you actually need the power and the clean overhead of a Twin Reverb you should be fine. It may take a while for the speakers to “break in”. If you are buying it to play on “1” in your bedroom or a small venue and say you have a Twin it’s not a good choice. If you are playing clean, bright, and LOUD with a band and/or use it for a pedal platform on a large stage...it’s one of the better choices. Also.. hope you have a strong back
    LarryM2 likes this.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by olddawg View Post
    Imhe... many times people simply like the sound of the various combinations of “issues” with vintage amps and the mojo involved. Component drift, aging speakers, etc. If you actually need the power and the clean overhead of a Twin Reverb you should be fine. It may take a while for the speakers to “break in”. If you are buying it to play on “1” in your bedroom or a small venue and say you have a Twin it’s not a good choice. If you are playing clean, bright, and LOUD with a band and/or use it for a pedal platform on a large stage...it’s one of the better choices. Also.. hope you have a strong back
    I have a Fishman for acoustic "quiet" times... I tested the Fender '65 out and thought it should fit my scenarios perfectly. I will be gigging and jamming with it. I'm more experienced with acoustic sounds but I've got a Strat and a Ric' that need more attention so I'm going a little crazy... meh... we only live once. Right?

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    Ok... Maybe we don't ALL behave like that.
    Exactly, and it is only those few percent of people who make life worth living!

    Keep in mind too, countries that are run entirely by large powerful countries are the ones most likely to have populations that have absorbed the same attitudes. The nicest people I've met have typically come from poor countries where people own very little material stuff, but value other people more than they value owning "stuff".

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    But I think a disproportionate amount of the people that control many of your circumstances do.
    Agreed. I can't change the world, but I can refuse to join those aspects of it that I find repugnant. So can you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    Trying to encourage people to behave differently is like asking a crappy dog to stop barking all the damn time.
    Not all people are the same, though. Evolution finds all strategies that produce successful survival. So we have psychopaths who will kill you and steal all your stuff, an effective survival strategy as long as you can continue to find new victims to kill. But we also had Mother Teresa, Albert Schweitzer, and Jonas Salk (who didn't patent his polio vaccine, so that it would be affordable and save more lives.)

    Nobody can turn Trump into Teresa. But someone who is in the middle, neither psychopath nor saint, has some choice as to which direction to lean in.

    Peace,

    -Gnobuddy
    Chuck H and eschertron like this.

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