More Butyrate questions - Which would you choose?

[belwar]

Well i'm at the point I am seriously considering having my own bobbins made from butyrate. I know its expensive but hey what the hell.. Maybe I could sell them to recover the cost.

I've got most of the research done, but it's left me with a confusing question. Based on my research off the internet, the original PAF bobbins in the 1950's were made from a soft butyrate with a fair amount of plasticizer in it. The effect this had is that many of the bobbins warped and curved over time. In the early 1960's gibson changed the butyrate formula (around the Pat sticker era before T-Tops) to use less plasticizer which made the bobbins harder and not bend so much (Thus why you see 60's pickups with less bend/warp in them). The bobbin design was the same though I believe, just a different material. The question is which do you re-produce? The softer one for accuracy or the harder one for durability and reliability? Or somewhere in the middle.

I'm guessing the makers that use butyrate currently use a hard formula. I know seymore duncan has gibsons plastics formula on file, but I havent seen any of the PAF copys they have with warped bobbins.

Thoughts?

belwar

[valvulado]

I would say, go for the harder grade. Anyway, once you have the tool, you can get sample quantities of the different grades and try them out - no big deal...

[Possum]

there's one disadvantage you may have not considered if you're really going to do this. Butyrate bobbins are not friendly to being potted. that may or may not be a concern, but wanted to point that out. Eddie Van Halen wrecked a few PAFs trying to pot them and they are famous for literally melting in the potting bath......

[Corona Blue]

Originally Posted by belwar

Well i'm at the point I am seriously considering having my own bobbins made from butyrate. I know its expensive but hey what the hell...
belwar

I realize this is an old thread but, in doing a forum search, I came upon it. Just wondering if anybody did end up making the authentic butyrate bobbins? I'm new to the forum and would also like to find materials that are more accurate to the originals.

The vendors listed in the sticky are indeed helpful, but bobbins all seem to look generic and cheezy. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks for the great forum. Really enjoyable reading!

Corona Blue

[belwar]

im about 1/3 of the way through the process but am now moving quickly. im working with a partner on what I think will be the most accurate paf bobbin to date. there are many challenges to overcome as you can imagine. first off is what size to make the bobbins.. there are not that many sets of paf bobbins out there for examination. luckily we were able to directly have three sets of bobbins in our posession to work from and also some research from another maker to compare again. there is also the matter of the material. it turns out not all butyrate is created equal. there is also the issue of if they are perfectly accurate then you suddenly have to make new basedplates and covers. so far our investment is quite large and next week we have to shell out 1900 bucks. basically the point is that I don't think well be selling them..

[Corona Blue]

Originally Posted by belwar

basically the point is that I don't think well be selling them..

Belwar, thanks for the response... so... was this a mis-statement??? Are you saying that you are not going to make these or that you simply don't plan to bring them to the general market? Bummer either way.

[belwar]

basically we won't be selling them to the general public unless we both agree to it, and as of now we both agree not to sell them as weve put a lot of work into them and want to benefit from that work for a while (on our own pickups) before we make any choice.

neither of us really want to be in the business of selling parts right now either

[Corona Blue]

Ah... right.... Hey, more power to ya, brother. You're steppin' up to the plate and tossin a nice little chunk on the roulette wheel. I know right where your at. Good for you and I hope it brings you some biz. I think it should! If you ever want to sell a small quantity of them, let me know. I'm just a hobbyist really, learning and building for myself and friends. Heck, I give more pickups away than I sell! HA!! But I wouldn't mind having something that's more accurate than the stuff in general circulation to date.

Let us see 'em when they're done!

Corona Blue

[Woodenspoke]

Originally Posted by belwar

basically we won't be selling them to the general public unless we both agree to it, and as of now we both agree not to sell them as weve put a lot of work into them and want to benefit from that work for a while (on our own pickups) before we make any choice.

neither of us really want to be in the business of selling parts right now either

Sounds like a plan however I must point out a flaw with your reasoning. If you do manufacturer the bobbin and do well with the new bodbins you have opened up the doors for someone else to copy your idea. You say $1900 is a big outlay to you but not to others. What you will find is that someone will dupe your bobbin and will be selling them before you have a chance to get in the game. You may be kicking yourself in the butt a few years from now.

It will also be easier to recoupe your money selling wholesale and the bobbins you use will almost be free, lowering your own pickup manufacturing costs.

Its something to think about. Wait till Stumac finds out.

Just my 2 cents

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by Woodenspoke

Sounds like a plan however I must point out a flaw with your reasoning. If you do manufacturer the bobbin and do well with the new bodbins you have opened up the doors for someone else to copy your idea. You say $1900 is a big outlay to you but not to others. What you will find is that someone will dupe your bobbin and will be selling them before you have a chance to get in the game. You may be kicking yourself in the butt a few years from now.

It will also be easier to recoupe your money selling wholesale and the bobbins you use will almost be free, lowering your own pickup manufacturing costs.

Its something to think about. Wait till Stumac finds out.

Just my 2 cents

You do realize that to buy his bobbins they will have to buy the whole guitar, right? Belwar is part of a company that makes very nice guitars. The pickups are for those guitars.

Personally I don't see the point of going through all this for bobbins.

[jonson]

You do realize that to buy his bobbins they will have to buy the whole guitar, right? Belwar is part of a company that makes very nice guitars. The pickups are for those guitars.

I can assure you from experience David that a couple of the big ones will do just that.

[belwar]

Originally Posted by Woodenspoke

Wait till Stumac finds out.

Im good friends with Jay. He already knows what im doing. They are in the process of upgrading many of their pickup parts, and may go the Butyrate route.. but it wont be through our mold.

As for why im doing it? I'm very obsessive and want a very good bobbin. I'm convinced this bobbin will be as close as one can get to the original. Will that make it better? We shall see.

[Jim Darr]

Originally Posted by belwar

first off is what size to make the bobbins..there are not that many sets of paf bobbins out there for examination. .

Belwar,

IMO the size of the bobbin would be the most critical aspect of your project. The PAF and early patent sticker bobbins I’ve seen all have had extreme warping and flaring issues. This may well be because of the formulas you mentioned for butyrate earlier in this string. I have not seen these on any T-tops (looking at two right now…no flaring at all).

My take for a great PAF sound is that the size of the bobbin is most critical: followed by TPL, tension and winding pattern(s); then magnet size, type and strength; then wire size & insulation thickness; then polepiece & adjustment screw material, shape and size; then baseplate material; and of course, machine wound, NOT hand/scatter/or random wound. Also, I think insulation thickness is more critical than insulation type.

Jim

[belwar]

I couldn't agree more. I think the bobbin dimensions are critical. That was the longest part of this project. Getting good measurements is difficult, and every good measurement comes with more questions.. i.e. Do you account for flare? Does the flare play into the tone? When the bobbins show different measurements do you do on the high side or low side?

[David King]

That would be pretty funny if Gibson buys a guitar from Belwar just to duplicate his bobbins...

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by belwar

As for why im doing it? I'm very obsessive and want a very good bobbin. I'm convinced this bobbin will be as close as one can get to the original. Will that make it better? We shall see.

I agree about bobbin dimensions ... but Butyrate? Unless you just like the way it looks or smells, I don't see it making much difference. I think the flare problem is like using celluloid pickguards. I've had an old guitars where the pick guard has warped and shrunk, and was pretty unusable.

I think you should find the best geometry and design a better bobbin than the originals.

I think it's really cool what Taylor did with their solid body. The bridge design is really nice and pickups are cool. I like the whole idea of not using the same old parts that everyone else uses.

But I like your guitars a lot too.

[JGundry]

The bobbins are a joint project between Belwar and I. I agree that probably the biggest detail is the dimensions. The Butyrate is a bonus detail but I think it does play a role in the mechanical resonance of the pickup and if we are talking about an unpotted humbucker I think it comes into play tonally. How much? Probably not much but I think all of these add up when you put them all together.

[belwar]

Originally Posted by David Schwab

I agree about bobbin dimensions ... but Butyrate?

David,

The cool thing about Butyrate is that it can be run in the same mold as ABS. The plastic shrinkage is very minimal and comparable to ABS... So if I want ABS bobbins, then I just run some!

[Spence]

Originally Posted by David Schwab

I agree about bobbin dimensions ... but Butyrate? Unless you just like the way it looks or smells, I don't see it making much difference. I think the flare problem is like using celluloid pickguards. I've had an old guitars where the pick guard has warped and shrunk, and was pretty unusable.

I think you should find the best geometry and design a better bobbin than the originals.

I think it's really cool what Taylor did with their solid body. The bridge design is really nice and pickups are cool. I like the whole idea of not using the same old parts that everyone else uses.

But I like your guitars a lot too.

Flared bobbins are usually a sign of poor attention to detail on behalf of the winder. Of course, most of Gibson's P90 bobbins were flared right out of the mould.
One thing I will say about butyrate is that it's really nice to work with and it's not hard to polish it. Combined with the demand for vintage accuracy this is these are the reasons why I only use butyrate bobbins for PAFs now.

[David Schwab]

OK, so now I know that butyrate is not as archaic as it seems.

[Dave Kerr]

Originally Posted by Spence

Flared bobbins are usually a sign of poor attention to detail on behalf of the winder.

That's a problem that has plagued me for most every bobbin type I try - am I going overboard on tension, or perhaps have an issue with my traverse stop settings?

[belwar]

Originally Posted by Dave Kerr

That's a problem that has plagued me for most every bobbin type I try - am I going overboard on tension, or perhaps have an issue with my traverse stop settings?

Most likely your traverse stop settings. Bring your traverse ends in a bit, and the wire will roll past the traverse stop point and nicely fill the bobbin without flaring.

Personally I think the flared bobbin is part of the mojo.

[Dave Kerr]

Thanks - it's less an aesthetic issue for me than it it popping off the top of a 3 piece blade pickup assembly.

[cryptozoo]

What's the update on this, did you guys end up getting some made?

[Possum]

If you are flaring regular humbucker bobbins its definitely too much tension. The way to tell is when the coil is done push at it with your finger, if its solid as a rock with no "give" its too tight....

[JGundry]

Other than the Butyrate factor PAF bobbins are flared because at least in the case of the Leesona 102 you need to have a fairly large amount of tension on the wire or the wire will run off the bobbin. I don't want to get into too many specifics why this is the case but it is. You can have the traverse dialed in well within the bobbin flanges and if the tension is too low it till jump out of the bobbin. Like many details of PAF's is a detail that is the result of a purely practical production decision.

Still working on the bobbins. Hurry up Belwar!

[Possum]

There are actually some commercial bobbins we all use that are poorly designed and when approaching being full with literally throw the wire off the flanges no matter what you do. There is a fix for it, something good ol' Leo used to do....

[Spence]

I don't have these problems with my butyrate bobbins but that's because I'm careful with my set-up. That's all it takes; a little set-up care.

[JGundry]

Originally Posted by Spence

I don't have these problems with my butyrate bobbins but that's because I'm careful with my set-up. That's all it takes; a little set-up care.

If you are dealing with the same machinery that was used to wind PAF's you have to accept the parameters of the machine and set-up accordingly. Fixed running speed, traverse guide distance, runout... Many factors come into play that don't have the same weight in the hand winding universe. Different winding methods, different set-up, different results.

[Spence]

Originally Posted by JGundry

If you are dealing with the same machinery that was used to wind PAF's you have to accept the parameters of the machine and set-up accordingly. Fixed running speed, traverse guide distance, runout... Many factors come into play that don't have the same weight in the hand winding universe. Different winding methods, different set-up, different results.

Thing is I am an engineer so I don't accept faults like that and you can surely get around those problems. Give me a couple of hours with your Leesona and I'd have it working properly. If you couldn't rectify these problems you'd have to concede that the machine is not fit for purpose but then wasn't Leesona the Hindu's white elephant god?

[belwar]

Originally Posted by Spence

Thing is I am an engineer so I don't accept faults like that and you can surely get around those problems. Give me a couple of hours with your Leesona and I'd have it working properly. If you couldn't rectify these problems you'd have to concede that the machine is not fit for purpose but then wasn't Leesona the Hindu's white elephant god?

I think Jon would tell you that the Leesona isn't the greatest winder. However, it's what was used and therefore makes it correct. I've watched Seymour's Leesona run and it's sloppy too. It's wind does sound awfully nice. The leesona was more meant for wider coils. Gibson bought thier winder used, probably because it was cheap :>

b.

[Spence]

Originally Posted by belwar

I think Jon would tell you that the Leesona isn't the greatest winder. However, it's what was used and therefore makes it correct. I've watched Seymour's Leesona run and it's sloppy too. It's wind does sound awfully nice. The leesona was more meant for wider coils. Gibson bought thier winder used, probably because it was cheap :>

b.

I'm just teasing him. I have shares in Gaviscon.

[JGundry]

Originally Posted by Spence

Thing is I am an engineer so I don't accept faults like that and you can surely get around those problems. Give me a couple of hours with your Leesona and I'd have it working properly. If you couldn't rectify these problems you'd have to concede that the machine is not fit for purpose but then wasn't Leesona the Hindu's white elephant god?

Wow you are a luddite and an engineer! At least you have both ends covered.

I will now quote a wise engineer or is that luddite? "Combined with the demand for vintage accuracy this is these are the reasons why I only use butyrate bobbins for PAFs now." Substitute Leesona 102 and other undisclosed vintage Gibson winders for butyrate bobbins.

Spence hard at work as an engineer.

[Spence]

Still waiting to see your winding promo videos Jon.

Thought this was it for a minute :

YouTube - A weird and pointless machine

YouTube - A weird and pointless machine

[JGundry]

Spence,

I love this still from your hand winding video. So this is what Garth was talking about!