Revolutionary or just another try?

[Le Basseur]

http://www.techtubevalves.com/index.php
Oppinions?

[Diablo]

I don't know anything about the quality of their new valve technology, but I really enjoyed the long film on their site which covers the manufacturing of Mullard valves produced about 50+ years ago.

[Tom Phillips]

The internal structure of their tubes is completely new rather than a copy of the traditional structure.
Heater current is lower, max plate dissipation is a little lower than a vintage 12AX7 and interelectrode capacitance is much reduced.
The warning about hot swapping could be a red flag.

This is going to be interesting when they become commercially available and people start reporting on the sound performance. My guess is that the sound is sure to be different than NOS tubes. The only real lineage to Mullard is the geographic location of the factory.

Fun fun fun,
Tom

[Steve Conner]

Their "new planar valve technology" looks like a CRT electron gun with a little plate dangled in front of the hole where the electrons shoot out.

If I didn't know better (and I don't) I'd guess the Blackburn plant was converted to make CRTs, and these new tubes are being made on the CRT production line out of picture tube parts. Nobody wants to buy CRTs any more, so maybe Philips wanted rid of the plant, and they decided to buy it out and do this. I expect the original Mullard ECC8x tooling got melted down for scrap sometime in the late 70s.

They might not sound quite like vintage Mullard ECC8x (the lower capacitance will make them brighter, for a start) but I bet they'll work well and sound good. I want some

[Robert M. Martinelli]

Very interesting!

I' m especially attracted by the lower inter-electrodes capacitance, as Steve says, they' ll sound brighter than a "normal" ECC83.

As to the lower heater's current demand, it could also imply these valves will have less hum and noise, but, looking at their datasheet, I couldn't find anything about their performance noise-wise....

Anyway, I think lowering the inter-electrodes capacitance is good, because one thing is to start "crippled already" by a higher inter-electrode capacitance you can't eliminate, one completely different thing is to start with a lower one ( better high end ) and thus be able to "tailor" the frequency response to suit our needs. If I find I don't like too much high end, I can always decide to add an external cap, ( but it' s ME deciding, neither the tube manufacturer, nor the "old" tube's physical limits ) so.... I still don' t know how they' ll sound like, but IMHO at least they' ll widen our "freedom of design". I want to try one too, so I' ll ask Santa Claus

Bob

[tubeswell]

Well I sent them an email and since I want to support modern tube manufacturers, this is what they said

"Thanks for your interest in the TechTube valve.

We are starting with the E813CC, E812CC & E811CC valves this year and then looking to the following: EL34, EL84, KT88, KT99. Which one to start with is still under discussion but we expect to launch in the early part of 2009.

Samples will be available for purchase when we launch the sales part of the web site. Our expected sales launch will be October. Pricing, ordering, shipping and other such things will be on the WEB site as we are not going through dealers or distribution in the initial start up phase. Pricing will be in the region of £20 - £30 plus shipping.

For further information, the WEB site will have a news section and a forum (covering technical, commercial, and logistics) starting soon so please keep an eye on things and give us your feed back.

With kind regards,

See our technologies at: www.blackburnmicrotech.com
www.techtubevalves.com
www.lpdlabservices.co.uk

Blackburn MicroTech Solutions Ltd., Philips Road, Blackburn, Lancashire,
England. BB1 5RZ +44 1254 507400"

[Tom Phillips]

Originally Posted by tubeswell

...Re: Pricing will be in the region of £20 - £30 plus shipping.

OK so that's in the $37 to $56 range US.
I wonder what a KT-88 will cost.
Sounds like this is directed to the audiophile market.
Still interesting and exciting that someone is expanding tube technology.
Tom

[Robert M. Martinelli]

Yeah, such a pity prices are so outrageously high.....
If I was to re-tube my Vox UL4120 ( 4xKT88, 1xEL84, 1xECL86 ) I would probably have to sell my home....and outrun my wife!
I can understand they have probably spent time and money in the development stage, but prices like this will keep them away from the guitar/bass amp market; I' m not ( neither I would like to be ) a marketing expert, but they' re probably making a huge mistake....30 UK Pounds plus shipping for an ECC81/82/83 replacement means prices are four times the cost of a "standard" tube, and, as Tom noted, this means only some audiophile ( with VERY deep pockets ) can afford to buy those tubes. I wanted to try at least one, but it makes no sense if I can't afford to buy complete sets to re-tube my amps. I guess they have just lost the chance to enter the tube amp market big-time.

[tubeswell]

I guess it depends on how good they sound and how long they last. I intend to try some when they come out so i can find out for myself

[Enzo]

In the high end audio world bragging rights and showing off are crucial. If you make a terriffic better than anything tube and sell it for $8 they won't buy it. REmember in audiophile land people sell IEC power cords for $250, and PEOPLE BUY THEM!!! Sell your 12AX7 for $50 and it "must be good." I wouldn't spend a lot of time rationalizing how they came up with the price.

I don't think they are interested in hitting the market with a large volume of sales at relatively low prices, I think they want the upscale market. Ferrari sells expensive cars, would he really make more money if he started competing with Volkswagen?

[Old Tele man]

...sounds like they're taking the same approach that the 'new' Western-Electric Co. is with their tubes, LOW-quantities at very-HIGH prices.

...but, the fact that they're using a 'new' design approach DOES sound interesting; however, (at those prices) I doubt that I'll be buying any of their products soon.

[Robert M. Martinelli]

Originally Posted by Enzo

I don't think they are interested in hitting the market with a large volume of sales at relatively low prices, I think they want the upscale market. Ferrari sells expensive cars, would he really make more money if he started competing with Volkswagen?

Yeah, but Ferrari has PROVED to be top class since their beginnings right after WWII, and stayed at the top in his own right for some 60 years, if I buy a Ferrari I know what I'm buying, so I' d rather like them to prove their stuff is first class beforehand instead of publishing some possibly over-confident blurb....OTH I understand the rationale behind their move, as a lot of audiophiles will buy those tubes just because of the price tag they bring.
( Don' t want to start an argument, but as a matter of fact some audiophiles spend incredible amounts of money, often uselessly ).

As I said, I think this new technology ( or, more properly, the use of an old technology in this new application field ) to be interesting, but it will take a lot more than a high price tag to show what they' re really worth. Time will tell.

[tubeswell]

FWIW I got this just now from TechTube

"May I take this opportunity to wish you a Happy New Year and thank you for your interest in our new TechTubeTM valve technology. As you may have read on the web site we launched the TechTubeTM brand back in September 2008 with a view to launching web sales of the product in October. Following very detailed, open and honest feedback from discerning end users at the launch the start of sales was postponed to allow our engineers time to rectify the few technical issues raised, namely valve to valve and within valve consistency, and microphony.
This rectification is taking longer than anticipated. As a consequence it is with regret that I have to inform you of the delay to the launch of the sales web site. The difficult decision has been taken to delay the opening of sales until the beginning of April 2009.
It should be remembered that our goal is to be selling a product that is better than the current manufactured product. Blackburn MicroTech Solutions, the Company behind the TechTubeTM brand, is what remains of the former Mullard Radio Valve works based in Blackburn so we have a strong heritage to uphold, so strong we named our first series after it!
We hope you understand our situation and ask for your patience.
With kind regards,
The TechTubeTM team.
PS> Below are some notes that I would like to reiterate:
The valve will cost £26.09 + VAT @ 15% + shipping if EU based
The valve will cost £26.09 + Duty + shipping if non-EU based
Shipping and Customs clearance will be via UPS courier
Ordering is by credit card off the web site
Larger volume requirements should be directed to andy.blades@blackburnmicrotech.com not ordered via the web site.
If anything is unclear please direct your questions to info@blackburnmicrotech.com"

[tubeswell]

Hi there,
It’s now been three months since our last notice and activity has been frantic and very productive but as yet the elusive solution is not quite ready for public unveiling. Despite the economic downturn our drive to launch the new TechTube™ valve technology is not diminished. We still have full management backing and are getting closer to the specification we have set ourselves.
Our target for the E813CC valve is to have every triode and consequently every valve with an Ip current within a band from 0.8mA to 1.2mA. We targeted this band after benchmarking several competitor valves. The benchmark analysis showed that current valve production has Ip ranging between 0.7mA and 1.6mA, even though the data sheet specification is 1mA! Within a valve, the triode to triode variation ranges from nothing (both triodes having the same output) to 0.5mA difference between triodes.
NOS valves perform better having Ip varying between 0.7mA and 1.3mA. Mullard NOS (Blackburn production) have excellent within valve (triode to triode) variations of less than 0.1mA against a norm of 0.25mA. Sovtek have a slightly wider triode to triode variation of 0.25mA but valve to valve they are very consistent with all the valves we tested falling between 0.95mA and 1.4mA.
Currently, our Ip ranges from 0.75mA to 1.5mA, too much variation considering our claim that we are benchmarked against the Blackburn Mullard valve. We continue to work on the factors that give this variation and are near to a resolution.
The other characteristic that we needed to improve upon according to feedback from the September show is microphony. Again we benchmarked several valves already in the field, both current production and NOS. Once again the variation seen was incredible. It’s no wonder end users complain about inconsistent performance!! Over the months the team has been working on this problem, we have come to know how valves shake, rattle and role in intimate detail. Our use of high speed cameras, differing construction techniques and numerous mechanical designs has led us in several directions. Unfortunately even though most were successful in removing microphony they created problems with other characteristics of the valve and consequently they have been scrapped. The down side of this process is that time moves on. Our knowledge base is rapidly increasing but that elusive solution that can be industrialised and automated is still to be found. We continue with numerous parallel paths and the team continues to work hard.
As a result of these factors we will not be in a position to launch the web sales to our plan of April this year. The team continues to work hard on the problems and we will keep you informed as we move through April and probably May.

From all in the TechTube™ team @ Blackburn
*******************************************************

[Sweetfinger]

Here's the newest update on these:

"Hi there…

In our last note we concentrated on the anode current aspect of the valve. In this note we would like to review another important aspect of the valve, microphony.

During our brand launch at the Sound and Vision show last September the importance of microphony was expressed again and again. It is a characteristic that we have always paid attention to in the new design of the TechTube™ valve. Indeed, the design of today has changed from that original product as we have addressed this important characteristic.

The design of our planar valve with its low capacitance and minimal structural restraint results in a valve that has the “creamy, warm, smoooooooth” sound associated with the best valves of years gone by.

In keeping with our UK and Blackburn heritage for the guitar world it was always a desire to produce a valve that replicated the traditional “British sound” associated with the style of Eric Clapton, Pete Townsend and of course Jimi Hendrix. We think we have achieved that…

During testing and evaluation that we have undertaken with guitar amplifier manufacturers such as MAT amps and noted guitar players such as Adrian Ingram and “Slim” from The Hamsters, it is clear that the TechTube™ valve has its own unique characteristics. “The TechTube™ valve performance sings”, “it’s so musical it adds to the performance of the instrument”, “chord separation is very clear”, “its sound is warm and creamy smooth”, “very reminiscent of the Eric Clapton sound” are among the comments made during testing.

But even more, in audio applications the TechTube™ valves perform with great “speed”; “quick responses” and “warmth” according to Geoff Kremer from Proteus Audio Developments, makers of the Diamond Amplifier series.

All these characteristics are of course a result of the design but there is something else too in our opinion. If the traditional valve construction is flicked with a finger, a so called “good” valve sounds dull and lifeless. Most times this characteristic is passed into the “soul” of the valve and its performance can be dull, with weak responses in some tonal regions. In an attempt to minimise microphony the life and soul has been restrained out of the valve.

With the TechTube™ valve the minimal structural restraint design allows tiny amounts of movement in the various components which at times allows a small amount of microphony when driven hard at high frequencies. This, in our opinion, is required to give the TechTube™ valve its fantastic performance in both guitar and HiFi applications, its “life and vitality”, its “fantastic speed”, its “clean chord separation”, its “warmth and smoothness”...

From all in the TechTube™ team @ Blackburn"

So... they're GOING for a tube that is microphonic. I am skeptical, and ad copy like the above does nothing to reassure me.

[Robert M. Martinelli]

Originally Posted by Sweetfinger

So... they're GOING for a tube that is microphonic. I am skeptical, and ad copy like the above does nothing to reassure me.

....So am I ( to say the least ), to the point that I am starting to think they've found their tubes to BE microphonic, tried to gain some time by postponing the release and distribution dates, didn't manage to fix this issue, so they're now trying to present/sell it as a "feature".

Some will say that getting old I'm getting veeeery bad too, maybe I am biased by having heard and seen too many marketing blurbs later belied by facts, maybe I'm just a sad old disillusioned guy.....In any case I don't think tube microphonics can be considered a good thing....God only knows what can happen by using microphonic tubes if cascading them in some "high gain" guitar amp.....

JM2CW

Best regards

Bob

[Chuck H]

"With the TechTube™ valve the minimal structural restraint design allows tiny amounts of movement in the various components which at times allows a small amount of microphony when driven hard at high frequencies. This, in our opinion, is required to give the TechTube™ valve its fantastic performance in both guitar and HiFi applications, its “life and vitality”, its “fantastic speed”, its “clean chord separation”, its “warmth and smoothness”..."

I'm all for a new tube MFG, but what the hell are they talking about?!?

Since when is "minimal structural restraint" a good thing for a tube"

Microphony creates non linear distortions and instability. How that leads to "fantastic speed" and "clean chord separation" is beyond me. In less than ethereal terms "clean chord separation" contradicts "warmth and smoothness" anyhow.

I suppose "life and vitality" are subjective enough that I'll have to let it go... Or not. Maybe that's the rattling and whistling that developes in two weeks because the tube is made with "minimal structural restraint". 'My amp seems to have a life of it's own since changing to TechTubes'.

It's starting to sound like the same old psuedo tech garbage.

Maybe with their intended microphony these tubes would be good candidates for a Metasonix amp.

Chuck

[theunrulychef]

Send me your tubes, and for $49.95 each + $6.95 Shipping & Handling, I will put them through my special Microphonic Induction Process or MIP®. Your amp has never sounded so ALIVE! I recommend the use of Diablo's specially formulated Tone-Paint on all of your capacitors to fully realize the potential of your new MIP® tubes.

[Steve Conner]

Well, I've ordered one of these tubes and will let you know how it works out. I have some original Mullard ECC83s to compare it with.

[Steve Conner]

I received my E813CC today and have some first impressions to post

First of all, it was expensive! At £30 UK, you wouldn't want to retube a whole amp with them. It arrived by UPS Saver, and the tube itself was packaged in a pretty substantial cardboard box. Also in the package was a silicone tube damper, and a letter saying that the tube damper was included because some people on forums had been complaining about microphonics.

Now, a word or two about how I tested it. I have two homebuilt tube amps, the Ninja Toaster and the Ninja Deluxe. The Toaster is a 60 watt master volume amp capable of pretty high gain, blasting through an EVM12L reissue in a rough copy of the Mesa Thiele cabinet.

The Deluxe is a 40 watt channel switching amp that started out as a Selmer Treble'N'Bass 50. One channel is similar to the old T'n'B layout, while the other has an EF86 bolted onto the front to turn it into a dirty channel. This isn't a master volume amp, but the dirty channel can overdrive its second stage quite heavily. It's fitted in a Mojotone 5E3 cabinet and equipped with a Celestion Gold.

So we have two amps (both described on this forum before) and with both of them, when played at low volume most of the character and "feel" comes from the second stage preamp tube, because it's distorting heavily while the rest of the amp is hardly handling any signal at all. So, I swapped this tube for the E813CC to see what effect it would have.

My first experiment was with the Toaster where it replaced a Mullard ECC83. I was surprised to find that I could actually hear a considerable difference. Blackburn use the words rich, smooth, creamy, (sometimes even smooooooth with extra o's ) and they aren't kidding. I've had this amp for almost 10 years, and I must have tried about 50 different tubes in the V2 position, and I'd have to say that this one has the richest, fattest distortion I've ever heard.

I then tried it in the V2 position of the Deluxe, which previously held an old Philips-Miniwatt ECC81. I'd put in an ECC81 to reduce the gain and smooth out the distortion a bit, because it was a bit too harsh and gainy with an ECC83. Again though, the Techtube seemed smoother still.

I swapped the tubes back and forth a few times, and it really does seem that Blackburn have created the most tubey tube ever. But is this all good? The downside, for me, was that sometimes it seemed a bit dull. With the gain cranked full up in the Toaster, it couldn't help but be aggressive, but at lower gain settings the original Mullard seemed to deliver more upper midrange harmonics, bite and splatter on pick attacks, and I felt the same when comparing it to the Philips tube in the Deluxe.

However, when it came to playing more adventurous chord voicings with a bit of dirt (which personally I love doing) the smoother Techtube did seem to live up to the promise of "note separation". In both amps it was able to create a lovely warmth and gruffness without any hint of the nasty grating noises I could provoke from the other tubes by playing dissonant intervals. (if you don't know what I mean, try it with a Tube Screamer, but not after a heavy meal...)

Finally, I swapped it into the Toaster's V1 position with the gain up full, to evaluate microphonics. Tapping the tube envelope with a fingernail produced a very obvious Ping! from the speaker. The original V1 (a Mullard box plate ECC83) produced a somewhat quieter Plonk! So definitely some microphonics, but didn't seem to be a huge difference.

Conclusion: I think this is a very interesting tube. Judging from what I've heard, and what I know about the CRT electron guns it's made out of, I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to have almost a remote-cutoff characteristic, that looked nothing like the characteristic curves of an original ECC83. Considering that Blackburn probably designed it this way to minimize dissonant harmonics, whereas the original ECC83 was presumably just as linear as possible, we could in fact be looking at Tube 2.0.

I'll post a follow-up once I've traced the tube characteristic curves. We shall see if there's any substance to my subjective rantings!

Note for American readers: Please read 12AX7 for ECC83, and 12AT7 for ECC81, they're the same thing.

[Daver]

Great review! I'm interested in the characteristic curves. A guy who owns an amp I built for him recently retubed it with the Tech Tubes. He loves them even more that his NOS Mullard and Telefunkens. He is also running one in his XITS amp. I ordered two just to see for myself if they're "all that". I'm cautiously optimistic. Thanks.
Dave

[tubeswell]

Hi Steve

I'd be interested to know what plate and bias voltages were you running on the techtube? (and if you have any soundbytes of the toaster with the techtube inside?)

[Steve Conner]

Hi all,

I've just noticed that the characteristic curves are right there on the E813CC datasheet.
http://techtubevalves.com/valves/e813cc_data_sheet.pdf

Compare the "Plate characteristic" to the one on page 6 of the original Mullard datasheet:
http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/ecc83.pdf

To me, that looks as if there's definitely some remote-cutoff action going on. (Draw a loadline and look at the intersection points with the curves.)

I'll still go ahead and do some tests, though it will probably consist of putting a triangle wave through a triode stage to see the non-linearity, or putting a sine wave through and doing a FFT analysis to see the harmonic distortion.

I'm at a jam session tonight with the Toaster and will try to get some sound clips. In part 2 of this review I'll measure plate voltages and so on, and publish them along with the linearity results. For now, I'll say that the Toaster uses the standard 100k/1.5k plate and cathode resistors in this stage, while the Deluxe uses 220k/2.2k, and in both cases the supply is around 200-250V.

[Steve Conner]

I managed to record two sound clips, one with the Techtube and one with the white label Mullard ECC83 I showed earlier. In the spirit of scientific enquiry, I'm not telling which is which.

OK, it's not really that scientific (or that good either!) you can hear me fiddling with tone controls and pickup switches on the guitar, and the other guys in the band joining in now and again.

And the fundamental problem is that I knew what tube was in use, which could bias my playing style. To do a really fair test I'd need to digitize the guitar signal before it went into the amp, and then replay it through the amp, to make sure the input signal is exactly the same for each tube. I could probably do this if anyone was really that interested.

Guitar: PRS McCarty with strings in need of changing.
Amp: Ninja Toaster set up as above, overdrive mostly from first stage of V2.
Recording equipment: IRiver IHP-120 with home-made stereo condenser mic, uncompressed 44.1kHz/16 bit. Clips were compressed to 192k MP3 with Audacity.

If anyone has any requests (more gain? less gain? different riffs? better chops?) post away... Test results on linearity etc. will follow next week.

[Steve Conner]

Whoops

[Daver]

I'll take a guess that clip #2 is the Tech Tube. It sounds a bit smoother. I just got two of these and have tried them in one amp so far. They do have a smoothing effect on the tone. In this amp they are slightly dull sounding compared to some other tubes and I do mean slightly. More experimenting for me. Thanks to Steve for the clips.
Dave

[Tom Phillips]

Comment on the physical size.
Comparing the data sheet to the old Mullard, it appears that they adhered to the old tube envelope size specifications. I'm glad to see that. Some of the modern tubes are too "Fat" to fit in some applications.
From the photos that Steve posted it also looks like the pin size is good. I,ve seen some chineese tubes with pins that were lighter guage than NOS and they dis not hold tight in the tube sockets.

Thanks for all the information you have posted.

Tom

[tedmich]

silicone oil would make for good heat transfer and dampen most any microphonics; you could use a PID fuzzy logic controller and a diverter valve/radiator, and resistive heater to control the temp very precisely. Maybe hemp oil?

[tubeswell]

Hi Steve
Do you have any clean clips?

[Steve Conner]

OK, time for part 2 and a half.

At tubeswell's suggestion, I recorded two clean clips using the same two tubes (or do I mean valves, they are both British after all...) you heard in the previous recordings. Again I won't tell which is which. I used the Deluxe this time, because it has more of a standard topology (though still nothing like a real tweed Deluxe!) and placed the tubes under test in V1 of the clean channel. So, the first stage is connected to the input jack, then comes the tonestack and volume knob, then the second stage.

Reverb on the clips is the amp's own spring reverb. Bum notes are model's own. ;-)

Which do you think is which? Which do you prefer? Can you hear any difference? I'd expect the difference to be subtle, since neither section of the tube is being driven very hard at all.

I also pulled the back off the amp and measured the voltages. For the Mullard they were as follows:

Supply node 259V
V1A: Plate 132.0V, cathode 1.261V, grid 0V (assumed)
V1B: Plate 129.0V, cathode 1.299V, grid 0V

and for the Techtube:

Supply node 261V
V1A: Plate 132.5V, cathode 1.275V, grid 0V
V1B: Plate 138.6V, cathode 1.221V, grid 0V

(Note: 220k plate resistors and 2.2k cathode resistors on both sections.)

I still haven't thought up a method of comparing the harmonic distortion from the two tubes so as to give a result that's easy to understand.

[Daver]

For the clean clips I'll guess that clip #1 is the Tech Tubes. The overdriven samples I previously guessed that the Tech Tubes were clip #2. Hey, am I the only one playing here! What do I win?
Dave

[Robert M. Martinelli]

Hi Steve,

I just listened to both clips very carefully, the first clip sounds "flatter", thus a little "mid-rangy" to me, while the second one has a certain amount of "hollowness" on the mids, which makes for a good match for a strat ( or strat-like guitar ) with the PU switch in positions 2 and 4, and renders both the lows and highs more evident, ( at least to my ear ), like it has been "naturally equalized".

Hope I managed to describe my "sonic sensations" well enough .

I must say I like the second one the most, but I believe the "tech tube" clip to be the first one.

If I'm wrong I promise I will hit my left hand knuckles using a ruler

Cheers

Bob

Edit....I have NOW seen the pic, and I' m glad to see 't was a strat indeed....this means that, while other parts of my body are starting to malfunction ( ....not THAT part....I was talkin' 'bout my eyes ), my ears are still working fine .

[Steve Conner]

Yes, it was a Strat using the middle pickup. I much prefer the clean tone of the Strat to my other guitar, which has humbuckers with covers.

I agree with Bob's sonic sensations, but as for which clip is which tube, I'll wait a bit longer before I spill the beans, to see if anyone else wants to have a guess.

[dai h.]

I like 2 better. Bit chimier in the top end.

[Steve Conner]

Hi all

OK, so I didn't get round to doing the measurements yet, and now the equipment I was going to use has blown up.

Anyway, in both sets of clips, #1 was the Mullard and #2 was the Techtube.

I found a home for the Techtube where I like its characteristics very much: The active EQ circuit in my Ninja Toaster. It was designed to overdrive the tube somewhat at high levels of boost, and the smooth distortion from the Techtube seems just right.