Fundamental Transformation?

[casey73]

Yesterday at a ralley Obama said, "...we are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America."

As a student of history, that statement does not set well with me. If you haven't voted yet, I encourage you to set aside emotions and use your God given common sense when making your choice.

History is littered with the corpses of utopian societies that went south in spite of all the good intention and promise they were built upon.

Peace, love, dove

[Enzo]

Oh get real, Obama has not proposed any sweeping utopian society. He simply refers to his view of doing things in Washigton as being different from the current model.

And personally I can;t recall any utopian societies in the first place. Rome wasn't a utopia, nor Greece, nor Egypt. Neither was the Holy Roman Empire, the British EMpire, The Ottoman EMpire, the Nazis, , the Mayas, the Incas, who else?

Sure there were small efforts to create planned communities and societies. And sure they failed. Just as there have been attempts to invent ideal artificial languages. You cannot easily create a society or a language from whole cloth. Society needs to evolve, not have new patterns forced upon it.

And that is what Obama or any committed politician is after - directing the nation's development to a better way.

Obama wants an end to the "I've got mine, screw you." mentality of the current Republican leadership. He sees it as a positive thing to look after the less able, the less fortunate. Now maybe you think we already do enough of that or even too much. or maybe you think we don;t do enough, but either way, it is not a plan for some utopian project, it is just an effort towards a policy he thinks will be better for us all.


Oh, and don't trip over the corpse of "compassionate conservatism". whatever that was, as you traipse down the road of history

[casey73]

Enzo-

Somehow I knew you'd be on this post like white on rice. I'm sure you are probably a nice guy, and possibly a smart guy. But that doesn't mean your judgement can't be flawed. And, at the risk of insulting you, I am here to tell you when it comes to Obama, your judgement if flawed.

Obama, if elected, will not only turn out to be a huge disapointment for his supporters, who, IMHO have taken on a cultic quality, he could set this country on a disasterous couse of events that will be very difficult to recover from. America as we know it, could be lost. You may like that idea, but I don't.

One of my favorite quotes from Platoon is from John McGinley's character, SGT O'Neill, on the eve of the last big battle scene, "I got a bad feeling on this one, all right? I mean I got a bad feeling!"

And that's how I'm feeling about a potential Obama presidency. I was 22 when Jimmy Carter was elected, and I was still in the Army, stationed in the deep south. I was young and didn't know much about politics, but my gut told me the guy would be a disaster, and I was right. Now you can pull out your stats and quote numbers to me all day. Carter was a train wreck. We are still dealing the his debacle in Iran. I have the same feeling about Obama, only this time the stakes are much higher and Obama's plans are potentially more disasterous.

This election has not been so much about why we should vote for Obama, but why we shouldn't vote for McCain. The left's hysteria over Palin would be laughable if it weren't so sad. And please don't tell me you believe that the MSM isn't in bed with Obama. This isn't a conspiracy, it is a given. Fact is we know very little about Obama other than he has the most liberal voting record of any current senator. The MSM and Obama's machine intend to keep it that way till the election is over. And what little we know about Obama isn't very flattering, unless you subscribe to extreme left wing politics. Funny how we don't see any exposes from Rolling Stone about Acorn and the rest of Obama's questionable past. Or, is that just another smear campaign from the right?

I spent 20 years working for a large educational institution. It was that experience that made me understand the nuts and bolts difference between conservatives and liberals. I was surrounded by highly educated people, most of whom had no common sense. They administered as liberals do, by removing any incentive for having a solid work ethic and doing a good job, and by ignoring incompetance, and in some cases criminal behavior, particularly if the employee was a minority, gay or lesbian. It was a microcosm of the ideal socialist society. I retired on the day I had the necessary retirement points to do so. Nothing Obama has to offer in his proposed policies has anything for me except more taxes, less national security and most likely a shrinking economy.

Communism was touted as a utopia, or "workers paradise". It failed miserably every place it was installed. Where it still exists, the masses are repressed. Sweden is a socialist society, and it turned out to be a disaster they are trying to dig themselve out of now. Nazi Germany was to be an Aryan utopia. The blind devotion I see for Obama by some of his followers is eerily reminiscent of Hitler's devotees. Extreme you say? No more extreme that comparing Bush to Hitler, and much more applicable I think.

I'm all for directing the nation's development to a better way, but Obama's way isn't going to make it better. As for the "I've got mine, screw you" mentality, I say "I've got mine, and if you roll your ass out of bed at 5 a.m. every morning, work hard and take advantage of the multitude of opportunities that are available to you as an American, you may have have your's too". But it isn't guaranteed. It's about equal opportunity, not equal results.

Like I said, it comes down to common sense. Nothing real complicated about it. Remember, vote early, and if you are a democrat, vote often!!!

Peace, Love, Dove

[casey73]

The United State of America is a nation of laws. Our law is based on the U.S. Constitution. It is the most fundamental document in our country. I believe that Obama wants to transform the interpretation of our constitution via the appointment of leftist revisionist supreme court judges. Let us pay our respects to he who has a brother in a hut in some godforsaken part of Africa and an aunt, in the U.S. illegally, living in public housing in Boston. Why isn't that part of his 30 minute hard luck informercial? And, for some odd reason, he can't produce a birth certificate. It was a big deal because McCain was born in Panama, but total silence on Obama's birth right. Another right wing smear campaign no doubt.

Obama's gonna change it, Obama's gonna lead em, he's gonna change it, and rearrange it, he's gonna change the world. For our children, for our families, nations all join as one. Sing for vision, sing for unity. Yes we can can can, yes we can can can, puke here if you need to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTBq_...eature=related

For those too young to remember Lyndon Johnson's Great Society. Want to see the fruits of the Great Society? Look at any public housing project in any U.S. city. And the crown jewel of the Great Society, Detroit, home of the highest crime rate in the nation. But, I suppose that too is the fault of G.W. Bush. Detroit, where labor unions once flourished, and industry left. The shining example of the great society that Obama wants to resurrect on your dime.

Before you cast your vote....engage your critical thinking. It isn't that complicated. Just use common sense.

[Spence]

I don't live in the US now although I have, but from where I'm standing, it looks like Obama will be the greatest disaster the US will ever suffer.
Socialism isn't something to try out because you think you all need a change. It'll feel good during that honeymoon period but it always leads to financial ruin which just isn't what you guys need right now.

I also fear that Obama will try to ignore the middle eastern problems like Clinton did. That strategy just builds up problems for the next administration to deal with.

[Enzo]

Casey

I'm sure you are probably a nice guy, and possibly a smart guy. But that doesn't mean your judgement can't be flawed. And, at the risk of insulting you, I am here to tell you when it comes to (this issue), your judgement if flawed.

And back at you. Had to edit the text there because Obama is not your guy.


You have perfectly collected all the right wing talking points into one document. You present a lengthy right wing diatribe with all the standard cliches, and you suggest that I am predicatble as white on rice.

This election has not been so much about why we should vote for Obama, but why we shouldn't vote for McCain.

Not what I see. I see the first election in many where the "lesser of two evils" argument hasn;t been front and center. Whether right or wrong, whether wisely or naively, the Obama supporters are largely inspired to vote that way, they are not would-be McCain voters. No one says "Gee I wanted to vote republican this time, but not that McCain guy, I have to vote Obama." No one. I hear conservative voters complain John is not conservative enough - they sure as hell are not voting Obama.

Obama, if elected... America as we know it, could be lost.

That is just silly, classic scare-mongering rhetoric. The absolute disaster of W. Bush two terms in office hasn't destroyed America, but now we are doomed because we elect Obama?

we know very little about Obama other than he has the most liberal voting record of any current senator.

Ted Kennedy will be pleased to take a break. Kennedy is roundly criticised by the right for being "the most liberal" senator serving, until they need to label someone else that. Then magically Ted is #2 and the liberal du jur wears the mantle.

I say "I've got mine, and if you roll your ass out of bed at 5 a.m. every morning, work hard and take advantage of the multitude of opportunities that are available to you as an American, you may have have your's too". But it isn't guaranteed. It's about equal opportunity, not equal results.

How trite. Tell that to the kid who enlists in the Army, serves well and honorably, then gets wounded in Iraq or Afghanistan. He comes back to Walter Reed or somewhere similar and is found to be damaged to the point he is discharged for medical reasons. That is when he finds out the Army will no longer honor his benefits because he "failed to complete his tour of duty." That's right, you get torn up on the job in Iraq, they turn you loose and cancel your bennies for failure to perform. Why? Because otherwise we might have to tax outselves to pay for it. Can't go back to school now for retraining, because his veteran education benefits are cancelled. I've got mine, screw you.

We wouldn;t want to support liberal ideas like clean drinking water, that might cost us tax money. I can afford bottle water, screw you other citizens.

[Mark Ingram]

Originally Posted by Enzo

Tell that to the kid who enlists in the Army, serves well and honorably, then gets wounded in Iraq or Afghanistan. He comes back to Walter Reed or somewhere similar and is found to be damaged to the point he is discharged for medical reasons. That is when he finds out the Army will no longer honor his benefits because he "failed to complete his tour of duty."

Can you site examples of wounded soldiers who lost benefits after being wounded? I have never heard anything like that. That is certainly not the way it was when I served in the '80s.

[TD_Madden]

I'd be interested in a cite as well.

[Mark Black]

Well, a quick search does turn up a few...

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070409/kors

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in589380.shtml

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/feb...n/na-wounded18

Let's hope it's not widespread - those guys (and gals) deserve the very best.

I find myself cautiously optimistic regarding the outcome of the election. I just hope the Dems under Obama exercise some restraint and do indeed reach out to include Republicans - we really need to come together and get some good things done without the blind adherence to party lines which has been crippling us.

[Enzo]

I hope every man or woman who serves in the military is treated well and fairly, often times huge sacrifices are demanded of them. ANd the VA and other organizations do make an effort to help them. But surely it is not news that we have Walter Reed fallng apart. Wounded soldiers are returned home to facilities where rats run and the ceiling has pieces falling off. Many many soldiers are treated well and get all their bennies, yes, but there should be NO cases like the above described. And I can't imagine anyone in the military who is unaware that many military families are on food stamps because they can't afford to live on soldiers pay. They deserve better.

[hasserl]

My father was wounded in WWII (and was awarded a Bronze Star and two Purple Hearts) and suffered the effects of those injuries the rest of his life. But he always spoke well of the VA hospitals and Dr's and nursing staff. He felt very blessed with the care he recieved there. I agree very strongly with others else here that we owe the very best of care to any soldier wounded in service of our country. I certainly hope what Enzo described is not true. You can throw out the The Nation article as far as I'm concerned, but the other two concern me. I hope this is straightened out, something just doesn't sound right. From first hand reports from other family members that have served it's all to easy to belive that the military beuracracy has screwed up some soldiers cases. The DAV should have access to these soldiers, and vice versa, so they can assist. I know my dad was a member of the DAV also. I saw the periodicals that came regularly to the house.

As far as the new President Elect, Democratic restraint and reaching out to Republicans, don't hold your breath. Obama's first staff assignment was Rahm Emanuel as Chief of Staff. That sets the tone right there. Emanuel is a hard line leftist Democrat with a "the Republican's can go f*&k themselves" attitude. I see a nasty four years ahead of us, real nasty.

The market has already took a dive (Dow, S&P 500 Post Worst Two-Day Decline Since 1987...). Russia plants missles on the border of our European friends. Hamas fires rockets at Israel and Israel retaliates with attack jets. Welcome to the Presidency Mr Obama. There is an old saying you guys should have heeded: be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

[Enzo]

Obama inherits exactly what McCain would have inherited. Neither man assumed otherwise. Neither man was looking for an easy job to phone in.

And as to "go fuck yourself," those very words were spoken by Vice President Dick Cheney on the floor of the Senate, not all that long ago. SO I hardly see how the next four years can be any nastier than the previous eight.

This is getting off track, no one is implying that all soldiers are treated poorly. And certainly there are many soldiers who were well treated by the VA and the system. The point was that these things do happen, and more often than by chance. A falling apart Walter Reed facility is not one guy falling through the cracks. I only brought it up as an example of someone who didn't "get his" but not from his own lack of effort. No one man's experience tells the tale. Because one man is treated very well does not mean they all are. And one man's tale of woe doesn;t mean every one suffered at their hands.

I do care about this issue, not that the right wingers will believe it, but I don;t make this a partisan issue. WHoever is in power should treat our soldiers as best as we can. My beef is with what the commander in chief sends them to do, not with the forces themselves. The latest administration has made excessive cuts in this area at the same time as the need for such facilities grows.

I maybe know a little more about Walter Reed than the average soul, since I grew up near there and even drove people there to the airport and back in my cab 40 years ago. But I think a lot of severely wounded soldiers know of it, and it was a major scandal some months back. Just because those nasty conspiring left wing media report it doesn;t mean it is untrue.

The stuf about soldiers losing their GI bennies for medical discharge happens on an ongoing basis, and it happened to several young men in my area. Nothing partisan in the local paper reporting these men and their family struggles.

"I hope this is straightened out, something just doesn't sound right."

You bet it doesn't sound right, it ain't right, but it does happen. The sad thing is these are decisions made, not paperwork errors.

[hasserl]

Obama inherits exactly what McCain would have inherited. Neither man assumed otherwise.

The timing of the events is suspicious and illustrates the lack of respect that the leaders of Russia and Hamas have for the inexperienced and anti-war (pacifist?) Obama; and the lack of trust the market traders have in his economic policies. Had McCain won the election these events may not have happened, or at least not with the same timing or boldness. I hope I'm wrong, but they look like a bad sign of things to come.

[hasserl]

And as to "go fuck yourself," those very words were spoken by Vice President Dick Cheney on the floor of the Senate, not all that long ago. SO I hardly see how the next four years can be any nastier than the previous eight.

Well this is a brand new Pres elect, that said in his election night speech: “Let us resist the temptation to fall back on the same partisanship and pettiness and immaturity that has poisoned our politics for so long,” Then he imediately follows that up with the Emanuel appointment. The two are at odds, he obviously didn't mean what he said in his speach. Which is easy for me to believe, because the guy has been misleading and outright lying throughout his campaign. But for those of you that have bought all his schtick this has to be a bit alarming, doesn't it? Or are you going to rationalize it away just like you have everything else that has been pointed out about this guy?

Or, he is ignorant about Emanuel and the partisan rancor he is responsible for. But then do you favor ignorace over deciept?

Not a good start if you ask me.

[Enzo]

The clash between the US and Russia over the missiles in Eastern Europe has been going on for a very long time, this is nothing new. We proposed installation of missile defense systems in eastern europe several years ago. The Russians instantly saw it as a threat and protested loudly. We've been going back and forth on this ussue the past several years. This is only their latest volley in response to our telling the world we plan to go ahead with the installations regardless of Russian objections. Whatever his title now, Putin is still in charge, and nothing much has changed. This is not something that just came up at the election.

Hamas fires rockets at Israel and Israel retaliates with attack jets.

And that headline could be read in the newspaper most any month you pick over the last decade or so at least. To somehow decide that TODAY's attack and counter attack is aimed at Obama is ludicrous.

[hasserl]

I don't think it's ludicrous to think that there is more to the timing than mere coincidence.

[Enzo]

Something in your life happens every day. One day it happens and you associate it with some other event. Why is it reasonable to think all of a sudden TODAY this thing that happens every day anyway is now because of the other thing?

Post hoc ergo propter hoc is a logical fallacy.

Correlation is not causality.

No one under 4 feet tall has been awarded the Nobel Prize. COincidence? Or a sinister bias? You decide. COuld it simply be that grade schoolers don't as a rule merit the award? Nah...

[hasserl]

However, these things do not happen everyday. That they happened when they did is conspicous. To deny that is fallacious.

[Mark Ingram]

[QUOTE=Enzo;79176]No one under 4 feet tall has been awarded the Nobel Prize. COincidence? Or a sinister bias? QUOTE]

It is also interesting to note that the hole in the ozone layer was discovered shortly after rap music became popular...

[hasserl]

Not to beat a dead horse, but it seems I'm not the only one to notice the timing: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1

From the article:

On an official level, President Dmitry Medvedev chose the day of Obama's win to announce the deployment of short-range missiles to Kaliningrad, a Russian outpost in Europe.....The announcement of missile deployments to Kaliningrad is meant "to test Obama -- whether he really is a strong and efficient leader," said Volk..... Volk said the Russian perception of Obama was of a politician inexperienced in foreign affairs who might be made to back down on US plans to place missile defence facilities in eastern Europe, which Moscow has portrayed as a threat.

This perception of a weak Obama was driven home on Saturday by a photograph on the front page of the Kommersant newspaper that showed his humiliating detention at an airport in the Ural Mountains on a 2005 visit he made as part of a nuclear disarmament programme.

In similar vein, the newspaper Moskovsky Komsomolets featured reminiscences of Obama's tour, saying "for a large part of his visit, Obama kept quiet and smiled."

Volk said Russia would follow up last week's threats with further high-profile shows of strength.

[Enzo]

said Yevgeny Volk, head of the Moscow office of the US Heritage Foundation

The Heritage Foundation. SO a right wing think tank has come up with an anti-Obama spin on something, just as you did. Note that the Russian Government didn't say this, just someone at the Moscow office of an American right-wing think tank.

I imagine you could also get suport for your notion from... oh let me see.... Limbaugh/Hannity/Oreilly...

So... that STRONG president Bush will just let this challenge sit there unmet for two and a half months then?

[hasserl]

In case you hadn't noticed, President Bush is not very strong right now. He's more like a dog that's been beaten, kicked and left chained up outside by an abusive owner. 8 years of bashing by a press all to eager to incite hatred and stir up the populice will do that to a man. Should Obama endure the same, which he won't, he would be the same. Not many men can take that kind of abuse.

[Enzo]

What utter baloney.

[hasserl]

It just goes to prove the old adage, the pen is mightier than the sword. We've had an excellent example of just that for the past 8 years, and in particular thru the recent election cycle. The press got what it wanted, and millions of Americans we're used as hapless dolts.

[Mark Hammer]

So lemme see if I've got this right. Hasserl and casey73 are kind of skeptical if the next administration will be as successful as others hope?

Okay, nuff said.

[blckmynnse8]

Originally Posted by Enzo

I hope every man or woman who serves in the military is treated well and fairly, often times huge sacrifices are demanded of them. ANd the VA and other organizations do make an effort to help them. But surely it is not news that we have Walter Reed fallng apart. Wounded soldiers are returned home to facilities where rats run and the ceiling has pieces falling off. Many many soldiers are treated well and get all their bennies, yes, but there should be NO cases like the above described. And I can't imagine anyone in the military who is unaware that many military families are on food stamps because they can't afford to live on soldiers pay. They deserve better.

I definitely have alot of sympathy for veterans. No matter what, the government does not seem to have enough money to maintain all of it's VA hopitals.

I used to believe in this "war on terror", but I don't anymore because I feel that the first defense against terror should be at our borders which seem to be rather leaky. If we were over there fighting while at the same time making things air tight along our borders, then I would believe that we were in the middle east "fighting terror". At this point I'm not sure what to believe as to why we may be over there, because it's definitely not about oil... we don't seem to be taking a single drop as any sort of "payment". I guess I could still view our activies over there as "building democracy"... or that we were attempting to allegedly help a revolution happen in Iran by invading two countries adjacent to it... I don't know and I won't claim to know, at this point I'm making guesses. I'm willing to claim at least partial ignorance on this one.



As far as President Obama, I agree with alot of the original poster's views. At 34 years old I'm still a bit of a young'un but I do my best to get as much of a grasp as I can on economics/politics. That is quite alot of information to absorb. I started out like many young folks being a full-strength rebellious liberal. Now some folks might say that I spend a little too much time listening to Quinn and Rose, Glenn Beck etc... I like Glenn because even though he can be a panic monger I feel like he's a little more open minded, though not completely. I like Jim Quinn mainly because of his views on economics, but not how he seems to defend "anything republican no matter what" sometimes. But I believe 100% in a free market system.

Anyways, learning the little that I have about President Obama's "formative period" and the fact that he's still quite in touch with many if not all of his old mentors, I am not very comfortable with our new president. At the same time I try to look back and think about all of the big panics of the past, such as acid rain, "russkies", Reagan taking us to nuclear war, etc... and consider how things turned out relatively alright after those big panics. I can't say the same thing for the little I know about President Carter, I'm just learning about that... I was just a toddler during his presidency.

In the end I'm really hoping that this is just another "panic" being created. I REALLY hope this is just the case but my gut is telling me otherwise. Time will tell I suppose.