Threaded magnets

[David Schwab]

Maybe a few others got this email too, but I thought it was interesting so I figured I'd post it here.

Sens Mag now has "threaded guitar magnets".

They don't give any other details.

Magnet Manufacturer

[automan]

Which ones are threaded? I didn't see any CuNiFe mags listed on their page like the fender thinline used.

[belwar]

Originally Posted by David Schwab

Maybe a few others got this email too, but I thought it was interesting so I figured I'd post it here.

Sens Mag now has "threaded guitar magnets".

They don't give any other details.

Magnet Manufacturer

I just ordered a bunch magnets from sens and they're including some samples of the threaded mags for me. They are making them in A2 and A5.

Pretty cool idea I think. Im going to have some fun with it and make a single coil in a firebird pickup cover (drilled) that can be raised and lowered like a humbucker. I'm making a mini guitar for my boy and though this would be a good place to test it

[Peter Naglitsch]

Thanks for sharing this David.

Maybe I'm stupid but I cannot find them listed on their web page! Anyhow this comes in with perfect timing. I just got the request to rebuild a Fender WRHB reissue and threaded A2 rods would be perfect for that IMO as they are quite close to CuNiFe in magnets strength (according to one source on the net, can anyone confirm that?)

@Belwar (as you have them in your hand) What are the dimensions of those magnets? And did they mention a price?

EDIT: Well as I was just about to order from Sensmag I placed an order for 60 A2 and 60 A5 threaded mangets. I'm thrilled to se how they work out in a WRHB assembly.

EDIT 2: Another cool idea: Take one of those cheepo Tele (MIM, cast bobbin, or a strat one) bridge plastic bobbins, remove wire, ceramic bar magnet and steel rod poles, Rewind and put in those threaded A5 poles. A Tele bride pickup with adjustable poles!

[Peter Naglitsch]

I contacted Sensmag and the threaded magnet specs are:
10-32 thread x 0.625"length or 10-24 thread x 0.420" length A2 or A5 magnets. Price starts at a buck each

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by Peter Naglitsch

EDIT 2: Another cool idea: Take one of those cheepo Tele (MIM, cast bobbin, or a strat one) bridge plastic bobbins, remove wire, ceramic bar magnet and steel rod poles, Rewind and put in those threaded A5 poles. A Tele bride pickup with adjustable poles!

That's the same thought I had, or the plastic Strat bobbins.

Or even humbuckers.

[Bruce Johnson]

They must have been reading this forum! Threaded magnets to those specs sound like an excellent idea. I can think of a lot of applications in oddball custom pickups. The price is certainly reasonable for the advantages.

[Spence]

This is good stuff but I'd love to know how they've done it in AlNiCo.
Belwar, did they tel you ?

[jonson]

Looks like a cut thread rather than cast or rolled Bruv. But it is machineable and it would be nice to know. Better stick a bit in the lathe this arternoon and see how many tools I can break.

[Alabam]

Great idea, must get the threader out and have a go.
Found this on a site-------------

This is a patent pending mod by Telenator. We have several pickup models in development using this patent pending threaded magnet technology.

.......and they said you couldn't thread an alnico magnet. pffffff!
__________________

[David King]

Alnico can not be threaded by conventional means, the threads must be ground which is expensive to say the least.


I can see using these magnets in special situations but for traditional pickups this is more of a solution in search of a problem.

[Bruce Johnson]

They're probably just CNC grinding the threads. The threads are 10-32 and 10-24, so, there isn't much material being removed.

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by Alabam

Now in this thread he says:

So to fully answer the question, no, we did not use threaded rod as alnico has this nasty habit of shattering when you try to machine it. Besides, the cost to produce these retro-fits is very high already. Adding yet another process to the works would put it out of site. The magnets you see in the photos have been hand ground to look like screws and give an authentic appearance.

So, are they threaded or not?

Read some of the stuff in there. I found it amusing.

[Alabam]

Originally Posted by David Schwab

So, are they threaded or not?
Read some of the stuff in there. I found it amusing.

Yes, some of the guys replying to him seem to have been sucking on grains of salt.
I still can`t figure out how he does it, probably have to wait until the Patent Pending is over.
I checked the Telenator site. looks cool with some great sounding sound clips.
This thread is from him on the Seymour Duncan forum.


"Well, if you try to thread an alnico magnet, they shatter. They're extremely hard. That's why no one makes pickups with threaded magnets. They're almost impossible to machine.
I have come up with a cost effective alnico threaded magnet and if my thoughts are correct, it will hvae a major impact on musical instrument pickups.

Steel screws used in typical humbuckers and P90s are very ineffective in shaping tone because they're not magnets. They merely help to distribute the magnetic field produced by the bar magnet sitting under the coils.

Threaded magnet poles are far more effective and have the inherent property of tighter, punchier lows. They really sound terrific! "

[ken]

I wonder two things myself...

1) Is 'telenator' actually able to patent using threaded pickup magnets in his pickups? Seems to me Fender can claim 'prior art' with their own use of threaded magnets in their own humbuckers.

2) How happy would the Sens people be if they found out that telenator was the only people actually buying their magnets due to a claimed patent?

Just curious,
ken

[David King]

I guess that all depends on whether Telenator get a patent in the first place. If the do then will they have the ability to defend it against hundreds of pop and grandma operations eating away at the fringes? The patent needs to be broad to stop everyone and the broad patent may be 50 years too late. There is hardly enough $$ in pickups to pay a lawyer to send out "cease and desist" letters let alone taking folks to court.

[Possum]

You know these theaded magnets are awfully skinny and the 10-24 one is awfully short. I wonder how long they would hold their charge. Skinny magnets aren't going to give much window space for the strings, these things are probably really bright.

I don't see how anyone could patent a threaded magnet, someone should send in counter arguments. All they are doing is threading an existing material, its not a unique process, does this mean they will also own all threaded magnetic cores? If anyone could pass through a patent it would be for the PROCESS of threading alnico, not the USES of these things. I don't see much market for these anyway, the WR buckers are a novelty vintage collectible, honestly I had a Tele Deluxe in '72 and that humbucker was pretty much useless for anything in my opinion, they didn't sell well either.

[Peter Naglitsch]

OK, telenator: I have been in contact with him after finding he has threads ALL OVER the internet about his prior attemt to do a resonable upgrade for Fender Wide Range HB. Resently he aslo posts everywere about he's new threaded magnets upgrades. So he has two solutions, threaded an unthreaded magnets. I contacted him to see if he were willing to expand to Europe (through me, I would be the contact person over here doing the work, buying kits from him) but he claimes that is wasn't possible due to that the magnets wasn't RoHS complienat, which is a pretty lame excuse. They are AlNiCo magnets and it is perfectly in complience with RoHS to import that to Europe. He simply doesn't want to have anyone else have a pice of the cake. Wich is perfectly OK, but SAY SO. And now I can get similar (if not the same) magnets from China...

Second, the original Fender WRHBs had magnets that was metric with 5mm diameter. That is 0.1969", pretty darn close to those 10-32 magnets according to this:
ANSI Screw and Nut Threads Size Chart - Engineers Edge
And traditional Fender Strat pickup magnets are roughly the same diameter and .65" long, meaning that there are no significant difference in size and mass between those threded magnets (the bigger once) and standard Strat magnets. So I don't se the problem with them not holding their charge.

Lately there have been some I-net hype about the original WRHB and the new ones that really sucks. I started investigating this some days ago when a customer came to me and asking for me to rebuild his reissue WRHBs. I have ordered magnets from Sensmags and will report back about the result of switching the threaded polepieces/bar magnets combo for true magnet poles

[David Schwab]

Yeah, the only thing he could patent is a method for putting threads on the magnets. He can't patent adjustable pole pieces.

If he does try to patent threaded magnets as adjustable pole pieces, there is prior art with the WRHBs, and all he could do is show that his method is an improvement and is a novel approach.

But I'm not a lawyer, and I don't even play one on TV, but I do read an awful lot of patents.

[Spence]

Surely they have to be sintered alnico done in a mould.

[David King]

They could be sintered in a mold but those from the Sensmag email look ground to me. I wonder why they are short?

Threads of 10-32 have a nominal outside diameter of .188 or 3/16", the same as truss rods. 5mm is significantly larger and more powerful as a result. Also removing the portion for the threads and the slot in the top leaves a lot less magnet (maybe 20% less) and the slot probably messes with the flux lines on the top.

[jason lollar]

I have been making pickups that retrofit into the wide range reissues that sound very close to the originals for years but I havent advertised it. I make all new bobbins that are size to specs of the old pickups which is a big difference from the new guy. I have tried to get threaded cuniffe for years now and had alerted my main magnet supplier to this- well he called me a month or so ago telling me about these new threaded magnets.
apparently it is not really alnico but it is a close equivalent. It is machined first and then hardened afterwards- the way its hardend has to do with how it holds a magnetic charge.
I have a few thousand magnets on order and am gearing up to make a complete reproduction- I have all the R+D done and am just waiting on some of the metal parts that require stamps made.
thats what i know about it.

[LtKojak]

Originally Posted by jason lollar

I have a few thousand magnets on order and am gearing up to make a complete reproduction- I have all the R+D done and am just waiting on some of the metal parts that require stamps made.
thats what i know about it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you have to specially route your guitar to install those p'ups?

Then, even though they were great sounding p'ups, they didn't catch on in the aftermarket p'up crowd because of that... what did it change today to make you think they'll fly?

I don't mean to be negative, Jason, don't get me wrong. I'm just curious!

Care to share your thoughts?

[jason lollar]

why would you make them? Fender reissued those deluxes and customs for the last 10 years or so- there are thousands of them in players hands so i have been getting requests for years.
as far as routing guitars, I have several pickup designs I made that people have routed thier guitars for- its amazing how many of these odd pickups I have made for people where they have to modify thier guitars to accept them- amazing actually!

[Alabam]

Ok i made one of these threaded Alnico magnets today, check it out------
Look closely, its only a slug superglued into a short piece of extension spring, now where can i find threader to match the spring grooves.

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by Alabam

Ok i made one of these threaded Alnico magnets today, check it out------
Look closely, its only a slug superglued into a short piece of extension spring, now where can i find threader to match the spring grooves.

You can get little helix threaded spring type things that slip over non threaded rods and work with standard threads.

I'm sure someone here more familiar with machining would know what they are called.

I thought about that as this thread (no pun intended) was going on, and wondered why no one had thought of doing that.

Personally I see no need for adjustable pole pieces, but I guess people like them.

[David King]

If you are just inserting them into something soft like plastic or forbon you wouldn't need to thread the bobbin very precisely if at all. Just keep in mind that taps only come in a few thread pitches per diameter at the hardware store. For our purposes 10-32 and 10-24 are about it but a spring over a .188" magnet will yield something very oddball. With some luck it might conform to 12-32 but you will need to get tension springs (or thread restore inserts as David mentioned above) that have a wire dia of .031" dia to end up with 32tpi (threads per inch) A custom spring maker will do these for you but in small quantities they will cost $6 ea. The thread restore inserts aren't cheap either iirc but they are standard thread pitches.

Keep in mind that spring steel will inevitably alter the sound of the magnets too...

The main problem with this business is that the polepieces can't touch the magnet wire or they will strip the insulation when you try to turn them and you will have a short. You basically have to use a cast or machined bobbin to wind on and that limits you a lot.

[Possum]

I was under the impression that the WR humbuckers were much larger frame size than regular humbuckers, aren't the reissues standard humbucker size?

Also I goofed I thought someone said the threaded ones were 6-32 not 10-32 big difference there. Still it amazes me there is much interest in the WR's have any of you ever played those things? They are weak and hifi sounding if I remember right back to '72 which mine was. I think if there are accurate copies made and kids put them in their copy guitars they aren't going to like them much. I personally would prefer a stock tele neck pickup to those things.

If anyone knows what those sleeve insert things are called I'd be interested in that, DeArmond made plastic sleeves for big fat rod magnets and those were good pickups, way better than the WR's.

[Peter Naglitsch]

The WRHB reissues have the same cover size as the originals (much bigger than standard HBs), but inside they are standard "PAF" sized bobbins with threaded slugs and a standard bar magnet. The original bobbins were wider and shorter. The original magnets were 5mm threaded Cunife with a 0.9 mm thread. The magnets offered from Sensmag, 10-32, are slightly thinner but available in Alnico2. According to information found on the internet A2 is 16% stronger than Cunife. Therefore I *think* (still waiting for them to arrive) that the slightly smaller A2 threaded magnets will produce a magnetic strength very similar to the original Cunife magnets.

I think that changing from the steel-slug-and-bar construction to threaded magnets and a proper rewind with the original reissued bobbins will get those pickups into ballpark sound wise. If not there is always the possibility to make new bobbins that is vintage correct.

We might like the sound of the WRHBs or not but there have been some hype about those pickups lately. For me the interest in those pickup started as I got customer requests to "do something" with those reissues, and with "do something" they generally mean to get them to sound as the original pickups.

[jonson]

Back about 150 years when I was a strippling, these buggers got me out of several stripped sparkplug situations. Helicoil inserts was the name UK side.

[Possum]

Guess you gotta luv 'em if you're going to go to all that effort to make accurate copies, well not exactly accurate though...
They do nothing for me and still think they were one of Seth Lover's worst moments :-) Have fun with it anyway. I made an accurate reissue of P13's despite the fact that there are only two guitar players on the planet who even know what they are :-) I do sell maybe 10 sets a year now; I'm still waiting for the guys who buy the Korean Harmony reissue guitars to find me to rebuild the fake P13s they are equipped with, maybe those guitars aren't selling either....

[LtKojak]

Originally Posted by jason lollar

why would you make them? Fender reissued those deluxes and customs for the last 10 years or so- there are thousands of them in players hands so i have been getting requests for years.
as far as routing guitars, I have several pickup designs I made that people have routed thier guitars for- its amazing how many of these odd pickups I have made for people where they have to modify thier guitars to accept them- amazing actually!

I see. Looks like our customer base is entirely different!

That australian guy that got a set made using the guts of the MIM reissue ones got'em to sound quite well, not quite like the originals but very good sounding indeed anyway.

Hear by yourself, the guy's using an old Fender Bronco amp.

http://www.offsetguitars.com/persona...telebronco.mp3

The guy who actually made the set goes by the nick of Tele-Bob in the Duncan forum.

[Peter Naglitsch]

Originally Posted by Possum

Guess you gotta luv 'em if you're going to go to all that effort to make accurate copies, well not exactly accurate though...

Personally I'm not a fan of those pickups. But as long as Fender keep feeding the market with at least 6 different models with the not-so-accurate sounding WRHB reissues there will always be a market for anyone ready to offer anything from a relatively affordable rebuild (new magnets and a rewind) to what Jason seems to be doing, a very accurate reproduction.

[Manlius]

There not A2 nor A5, per the email I got in reply to some questions:

These threaded rod magnets is thread 10-32 or 10-24. (all 0.190 Dia) with slot one end and 2 ends dome.

Magnet grades are FeCrCo2 ( equal to alnico2) and FeCrCo5(equal to alnico5)

Length can be from 0.40" to 0.800" . now what we are making was:

1. FeCrCo2 10-24 thread x 0.420"long
2. FeCrCo5 10-32 thread x 0.625"long
3. FeCrCo5 1/4-20 thread x 0.705"long ( 1/4-20 was 0.250"dia.)

Please let us know if you have any questions.

Have a nice day!

Thanks & Best regards,

FWIW

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by jonson

Helicoil inserts was the name UK side.

Bingo!

Heli-Coil ( HeliCoil Inserts ) Helicoils Screw Thread Inserts | Emhart.com