New Compact Winder Being Designed

[big_teee]

Remington Industries, is in the process of designing and building a New winder for Us Pickup Makers.
They wanted to know what we wanted and didn't want on a winder.
They are looking at the Schatten, and the Thomas.
Probably here on the forum.
I suggested a kit of all major components.
If you have any suggestions Post them here.
Hopefully they will come up with something that is not terribly expensive, like their wire.
I liked David S. suggestion that winders have a lighted counter.
Terry

[David Schwab]

Remington Industries, is in the process of designing and building a New winder for Us Pickup Makers.
They wanted to know what we wanted and didn't want on a winder.
They are looking at the Schatten, and the Thomas.
Probably here on the forum.
I suggested a kit of all major components.
If you have any suggestions Post them here.
Hopefully they will come up with something that is not terribly expensive, like their wire.
I liked David S. suggestion that winders have a lighted counter.
Terry

Oh this is good news. I just ordered some magnet wire from them yesterday.

Hmmmm let me put some thought into this and compile a list!

[big_teee]

Oh this is good news. I just ordered some magnet wire from them yesterday.

Hmmmm let me put some thought into this and compile a list!

They sell lots of big machines, They want to get into the small winder market also.
I suggested a finished and a kit winder.
I told Larry the sales guy it needed a heavy duty motor, probably DC.
A heavy speed control. Possibly a foot switch jack.
It needs a medium Large display 5 digit counter.
It needs the right and left bobbin arms, Etc.
Now is the time to input, before they start buying parts.
Also Remington wants to branch out and sell some winding supplys, like hook up wire, and different Tapes that we use.
So I think they see the revenue available in the Booteek Winding Market.
Any input will benefit all of us!
T

[big_teee]

Bump!
Anyone got their 2c that they want to get on a ready made winder.
Like Specifics on motors, counters, Rpm, Speed Control type, how big, how long the mandrel shafts are, how close, & how long the stop bars are, & etc?
B_T

[Chris Turner]

Some sort of auto-traverse would certainly be handy...

[big_teee]

No traverse.
Just a basic heavy duty hand winder.
I think remington already sells some of that.
T

[SonnyW]

I've already got a winder I like, so I probably won't be buying one, but I do have some inputs. Maybe this will help start up some controversy around here it has been too quiet lately.

1. Ergonomics for the winder operator needs to be taken into consideration. I am an industrial engineer by training. Everyone has their winding style that they have become accustomed to, but here are my inputs on it. The centerline of the shaft needs to be at least 6 inches above table height and no more than about 10 inches back from the front of the baseplate for best view of the spinning bobbin. IMHO the shaft on the Schatten winder and some of the others I have seen is too low and too far back for comfort day in and day out. The shaft just needs to be positioned so that it is in the optimum place for viewing.

2. Speaking of viewing, a light on some kind of adjustable arm or gooseneck would be nice as well as some way to mount a white card behind the bobbin. Look at Abigail in the video and the light and background she is using: The Queen of Tone.. (Abigail Ybarra) - YouTube
This also illustrates what in my opinion is a good positioning of the shaft.

3. If the motor is reversible I see no need for the second shaft.

4. I would like to see round tooling plates instead of rectangular, and ideally there would be a way to make them replaceable and interchangeable. On my own machines I made the tooling plates myself. If the shaft had a coupling with say a half inch bore with a set screw and the tooling plates had a half inch shaft on centerline then it would be easy to interchange them for different mounting needs. One idea is to make the tooling plate out of an aluminum disc with a steel or brass rod press fit into it that would slip into the bore of the coupling on the shaft. That way there can be a tapped hole on the centerline which is useful for many types of mounting. It is just my idea of it here is a photo of one of my tooling plates. This one is good for various humbucker bobbins and single coils. It is made from a disc about half an inch thick with a brass rod about an inch and a half or two inches long press fit into it before facing it off and tapping the 4-40 hole on center.



That ought to be controversial enough to get some comments

[JCrab]

This is good news,, I like SonnyW input on the ergonomics, I have a home made arm rest I use

[big_teee]

In this Reply I am going to make a numbered list of Items wanted on winder.
Go over it and reply what you do or don't agree with.
Then I will send list to Larry at Remington.

1. Heavy duty DC Type Sewing machine Motor? Or Maybe another type motor??? please advise.
2. Perhaps a Sprocket type pulley, and belt, please respond???
3. Double ended Ball bearing Mandrel shaft, and with no run-out. (Required for winders that do Top Going only!)
4. Mandrel needs to be 6-9 inches above table height.
5. Stop Bars are at What Height??? Please respond
6. If Financially feasible, round tooling plates instead of rectangular, and ideally there would be a way to make them replaceable and interchangeable.
7. Jack for foot switch, and foot switch.
8. Speed Control Reostat located in a forward location??? Please respond
9. Speed limitations??? What doe the speed range need to be?
10. A backlit large display 5 digit counter??? any recommendations.
11. Optical Sensor on Mandrel shaft??? any recommendations.

[Chris Turner]

In this Reply I am going to make a numbered list of Items wanted on winder.
Go over it and reply what you do or don't agree with.
Then I will send list to Larry at Remington.

1.Heavy duty DC Type Sewing machine Motor.
2. Perhaps a Sprocket type pulley, and belt, please respond???
3. Double ended Mandrel shaft.
4.

Definitely a well-lit, high contrast counter... red on black LCD display or an LED display?

[big_teee]

Definitely a well-lit, high contrast counter... red on black LCD display or an LED display?

Got any recommendation for a 5 digit counter?

[enkindler]

IMHO a modern BLDC motor would be much nicer than an old DC motor and easier to control the speed of.

Please consider this vs an ancient horrid brushed motor speed control. If you had to do inductive it is cheap to source three phase motors and there are many good COTS VFD and BLDC drive IC's that would give us awesome acceleration and deceleration ramps.

[big_teee]

IMHO a modern BLDC motor would be much nicer than an old DC motor and easier to control the speed of.

Please consider this vs an ancient horrid brushed motor speed control. If you had to do inductive it is cheap to source three phase motors and there are many good COTS VFD and BLDC drive IC's that would give us awesome acceleration and deceleration ramps.

Maybe different motor options could be available, for US, and European, and whatever the rest of the world needs.
Possibly in a kit it could be with or without motor option.
T

[big_teee]

In this Reply I am going to make a numbered list of Items wanted on winder.
Go over it and reply what you do or don't agree with.
Then I will send list to Larry at Remington.

1. Heavy duty DC Type Sewing machine Motor? Or Maybe another type motor??? please advise.
2. Perhaps a Sprocket type pulley, and belt, please respond???
3. Double ended Ball bearing Mandrel shaft, and with no run-out. (Required for winders that do Top Going only!)
4. Mandrel needs to be 6-9 inches above table height.
5. Stop Bars are at What Height??? Please respond
6. If Financially feasible, round tooling plates instead of rectangular, and ideally there would be a way to make them replaceable and interchangeable.
7. Jack for foot switch, and foot switch.
8. Speed Control Reostat located in a forward location??? Please respond
9. Speed limitations??? What doe the speed range need to be?
10. A backlit large display 5 digit counter??? any recommendations.
11. Optical Sensor on Mandrel shaft??? any recommendations.

I am making this Thread a Sticky until I send the info to Remington, then I will turn it loose.
This thread is an open thread, and please keep responding!
Thank you,
Terry

[enkindler]

Maybe different motor options could be available, for US, and European, and whatever the rest of the world needs.
Possibly in a kit it could be with or without motor option.
T

The controller would be completely different.

DC is better than a simple shaded poll AC motor but a three phase or BLDC motor allows you to say "accelerate to 5000 RPM in a logarithmic way over 4 seconds" or keep an RPM regardless of load or provide s particular force despite an RPM. They will also take feedback from say, a load cell on a tensioner.

All of this is via SPI, so the programming difficulty goes way down.

Brushed DC motors are great for a home built kit but if you are making a new commercial winder for sale it would be best to use modern technology.

For prototyping RC plane motors are BLDC and actually would be big enough for a pickup winder. I made one heck of a prototype with a 50 oz inch Nema 17 bldc motor but I did not want to spend the time making a frame for it.

I use a converted mini lathe with a three phase AC motor and a VFD, this is overkill for pickups but with a 1/4 HP three phase motor I get between 2 and 7500 RPM's with acceleration and deceleration ramps.

I still hand wind but being able to set the deceleration ramp means I can wind at almost full speed until my target wind count and the controller decelerates at the last moment. The ramped acceleration prevents issues when I stop to check the Ohm's when winding by "feel"

Also these new motor drivers do active deceleration, meaning they turn the motor into a generator and put the output to ground in a controlled fashion. So my emergency stop does full on braking, it is not saw stop fast but it is pretty quick.

[big_teee]

The controller would be completely different.

DC is better than a simple shaded poll AC motor but a three phase or BLDC motor allows you to say "accelerate to 5000 RPM in a logarithmic way over 4 seconds" or keep an RPM regardless of load or provide s particular force despite an RPM. They will also take feedback from say, a load cell on a tensioner.

All of this is via SPI, so the programming difficulty goes way down.

Brushed DC motors are great for a home built kit but if you are making a new commercial winder for sale it would be best to use modern technology.

For prototyping RC plane motors are BLDC and actually would be big enough for a pickup winder. I made one heck of a prototype with a 50 oz inch Nema 17 bldc motor but I did not want to spend the time making a frame for it.

I use a converted mini lathe with a three phase AC motor and a VFD, this is overkill for pickups but with a 1/4 HP three phase motor I get between 2 and 7500 RPM's with acceleration and deceleration ramps.

I still hand wind but being able to set the deceleration ramp means I can wind at almost full speed until my target wind count and the controller decelerates at the last moment. The ramped acceleration prevents issues when I stop to check the Ohm's when winding by "feel"

Also these new motor drivers do active deceleration, meaning they turn the motor into a generator and put the output to ground in a controlled fashion. So my emergency stop does full on braking, it is not saw stop fast but it is pretty quick.

We're open to all kinds of motor options.
we want this to be inexpensive winder, with a Speed Control knob to turn to make it go faster or slower.
and, maybe a foot switch, or toggle for instant off.
On this winder we are shooting for something that is an upgrade to the schatten, sidewinder, and maybe the thomas.
Something that is affordable to all.
Then maybe get them to design some auto traverse options later.
T

[enkindler]

We're open to all kinds of motor options.
we want this to be inexpensive winder, with a Speed Control knob to turn to make it go faster or slower.
and, maybe a foot switch, or toggle for instant off.
On this winder we are shooting for something that is an upgrade to the schatten, sidewinder, and maybe the thomas.
Something that is affordable to all.
Then maybe get them to design some auto traverse options later.
T

An upgrade to the schatten wouldn't be very hard.

If you price out the components required DC will be just as or more expensive

Let's consider you use stepper motors, because they are easy to source

127 oz-in (unipolar)

The lowest Let's say Nema 24 because the shaft size is nice comparied to 17 and you could direct mount. The 24PK266-02A 127 oz-in (unipolar) motor costs less than $20 in quantity.

Now for stepper drivers let's pick a fancy one so that you need less MCU, if you go with the top of the top the ST L6470

The chip is about $10 in small quantities which sounds like a lot however the chip does over current detection, missed step detection, acceleration while also maintaining absolute and relative positions. You will not need a hall sensor to do counting and the number of outside components is very small.

Add in a simple MCU of your choice (pic, arm32 or heck arduino) that has enough pins for a push rotary encoder and a HD44780 based serial LCD and you are good to go.

I few more pins for a floor controller or a direction switch would be nice I guess but you wouldn't need anything more than their “value” series” using a higher end motor driver.

You will need to source a 24v DC power supply or build it into the board but it should all fit in less than 4 square inches of board and cost less than as a high guess $40 in parts in low quantity aka digikey.

These new smart motor IC's will also step lock, meaning if you had two, one for traverse and one for wrap they would accelerate in sync too. Controlling a DC motor via an H bridge means you will be doing rpm counting externally which means harder integration in the future and/or higher cost.

I think pickup winders would love saying “wind 9000 winds” and having smooth acceleration and more importantly as this video shows, with the pickup stopping in the orientation you want.

These new smart motor IC's will also step lock, meaning if you had two, one for traverse and one for wrap they would accelerate in sync too.

Here is a video of the stepper driver I am talking about in action, not the accell/decell I would not recommend you select a propeller as a MCU as he has.

L6470 Microstepper driver - YouTube

Here is a breakout for that stepper driver, I have no connection to nor do I recommend or have experience with this vendor. I am linking to show you how tiny the passive component count is with this chip.

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10859


I sized this where I think you could get about 800 rpm with 1A out of the chip, which is all that one can support without adding a power stage. Note this winding speed is faster than the But those little steppers should be good for up to 1400 RPM if you could push 3A.


With the parts any programmer worth his salt should be able to make a simple winder app in just a few days max. Any EE and most hobbyist could design the IC in the same amount of time.

If you made the physical box nice you would be decades past the "quality gear" that is out there right now.

P.S. if you made your MCU accept simple gcode commercial winding cam software could be used and you could “duplicate” particular winds even hand scatter ones with ease.

[Stratz]

Enkindler..... the winder mentioned in this topic is not going to be any kind of automated CNC type of winder. Just a simple unit for hand winding that's better quality than the schatten.

[enkindler]

Enkindler..... the winder mentioned in this topic is not going to be any kind of automated CNC type of winder. Just a simple unit for hand winding that's better quality than the schatten.

Stratz,

A traverse was mentioned above, unless they are talking about cams it will be "CNC" Note that the microcontroller I am talking about costs less than $1 and the machine will have one if it has a counter.

Even without the schatten has a MCU too for its counter no matter if it was purchased off the shelf or not.

I am actually talking about reducing the parts count and cost. For a hand winder, the cost of having revolution count stops etc.. would cost less than $10 more in parts compaired to a simple PWM based speed control.

Personally I couldn't go back to a machine without a tailstock but it would be worse dealing with an inconsistent speed control to reduce cost by a few dollars.

[big_teee]

[QUOTE=big_teee;268607]In this Reply I am going to make a numbered list of Items wanted on winder.
Go over it and reply what you do or don't agree with.
Then I will send list to Larry at Remington.

1. Heavy duty Long life motor.
2. Heavy duty sprocket, belt, and pulley system.
3. Double ended Ball bearing Mandrel shaft, and with no run-out. (Required for winders that do Top Going only!)
4. Mandrel needs to be 6-9 inches above table height.
5. Double Height adjustable Stop Bars, with adjustable stop collars.
6. If Financially feasible, round tooling plates instead of rectangular, and ideally there would be a way to make them replaceable and interchangeable.
7. Foot switch, and foot switch jack.
8. heavy Duty Speed Control, with speed knob located in a forward location???
9. Winding speed 0-1500 rpm.
10. A backlit large display 5 digit counter.
11. Optical Sensor type speed control.
12

For right now, If we can concentrate on the basic winder.
If you can read through the items above, and answer the questions I don't have answers too, that would be a great help.
I don't have a winder of this type.
So those of you that have built a sewing machine motor type winder, are more qualified to answer them than me.
Thanks for the help!
T

[copperheadroads]

Here's the faceplate on one of my winders ,with similar bobbin mounting holes as Sonny's

Center hole is for fender style pickups & the others are humbucker bobbin spacings 49.2mm,50mm,53mm all holes tapped with 4-40 screws
this one was made by Bruce Johnson ,He's a member of this forum & he does outstanding work

[David Schwab]

I'd like to see a tail stock on the winder. That helps keep certain kinds of bobbins in place.

[SonnyW]

For right now, If we can concentrate on the basic winder.
If you can read through the items above, and answer the questions I don't have answers too, that would be a great help.
I don't have a winder of this type.
So those of you that have built a sewing machine motor type winder, are more qualified to answer them than me.
Thanks for the help!
T

I will take a stab at the speed limitations. I am sure everyone has their preference here. My winder goes from 0rpm to about 2200. I very seldom wind over about 1500 - 1700 though, and usually the control is set at about 1000- 1100 for the max. I am using the sewing machine type rheostat pedal in combination with a common hardware store router speed controller. That works very nicely since I have some additional speed control as well with the foot pedal. The router speed control sets the max speed and I can vary it from zero up to that amount with the foot pedal.

I quit using the stop bars so I don't have a good input on that. When I did use them mine were height adjustable anyway.

I'd still like to see that light at least as an option.

The tailstock as David mentioned would be another nice option.

[big_teee]

Latest list!
1. Heavy duty Long life motor.
2. Heavy duty sprocket, belt, and pulley system.
3. Double ended Ball bearing Mandrel shaft, and with no run-out. (Required for winders that do Top Going only!)
4. Mandrel needs to be 6-9 inches above table height.
5. Double Height adjustable Stop Bars, with adjustable stop collars.
6. If Financially feasible, round tooling plates instead of rectangular, and ideally there would be a way to make them replaceable and interchangeable.
7. Foot switch, and foot switch jack.
8. heavy Duty Speed Control, with speed knob located in a forward location???
9. Winding speed 0-1500 rpm.
10. A backlit large display 5 digit counter.
11. Optical Sensor type speed control.

Don't know how you would incorporate a tail stock into a small winder foot print?

[David Schwab]

3. Double ended Ball bearing Mandrel shaft, and with no run-out. (Required for winders that do Top Going only!)

Do you mean having a shaft on each side? I never ever use the one on the left. I reverse the rotation of the motor and wind top coming. Or, flop the bobbin over and wind top going as usual. It's far easier than setting up to wind on the left side of the machine.

[big_teee]

Do you mean having a shaft on each side? I never ever use the one on the left. I reverse the rotation of the motor and wind top coming. Or, flop the bobbin over and wind top going as usual. It's far easier than setting up to wind on the left side of the machine.

It would still be an option, for those that want to wind on the other side.
I am going to include it on the list I submit.
Other than that do you have any height, speed, or other requirements, you would like me to submit?
Is the 0-1500 rpm sound about right?
I don't wind very fast and that would more than take care of my requirements.
T

[copperheadroads]

With the double end mandrel
I would have mine set up Single coils on one side & humbuckers on the other

[Stratz]

With the double end mandrel
I would have mine set up Single coils on one side & humbuckers on the other

Exactly!
I wouldn't buy a winder without TG option on both sides.

[Ilya F.]

I'm interesing, it will be selling on other countries? For example, in Russia? If so, it would be nice to provide an opportunity to use the voltage to 220 volts.
Yet it would be nice to be able to freely set the value on the counter, choose the direction of the account.

[David Schwab]

With the double end mandrel
I would have mine set up Single coils on one side & humbuckers on the other

That would be assuming the motor ran in both directions.

[David Schwab]

Hey, shouldn't this thread be in Tools and Coil Winding Gear?

[big_teee]

Latest list!
1. Heavy duty Long life motor, if financially feasible a reversible motor, and Also offer an Export 220v Option
2. Heavy duty sprocket, belt, and pulley system.
3. Double ended Ball bearing Mandrel shaft, and with no run-out. (Required for winders that do Top Going only!)
4. Mandrel needs to be 6-9 inches above table height.
5. Double Height adjustable Stop Bars, with adjustable stop collars.
6. If Financially feasible, round tooling plates instead of rectangular, and ideally there would be a way to make them replaceable and interchangeable.
7. Foot switch, and foot switch jack.
8. heavy Duty Optical Sensor type Speed Control, with speed knob located in a forward location???
9. Winding speed 0-1500 rpm.
10. A backlit large display 5 digit counter.
11. Optional adjustable light

[big_teee]

Bump!
List has been submitted.
Remington is in early stage development of the new winder and will keep us posted on its progress.
T

[David King]

I don't know where this list emanated from but I would certainly add a few more options that will probably push the price up but they could be retrofits to add later on.
A preset counter would be nice especially if it could remember several different presets.
A tailstock option.
A wire-handeling kit that includes: whisker disk, a spool cone, an adjustable stand with several arms, an adjustable felt disc tensioner, some fine wire guides etc.

[walcen]

A simple motor brake circuit added to the PWM to prevent over run would be good.

I've always thought about setting up a bright light above the bobbin and hooking it up to a read switch or similar so that it only illuminates when the bobbin is vertical, sort of like a car timing light arrangement, thus giving one a clear view of how the wire is being laid on the bobbin.

regards to all

Walt