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Thread: Trace Elliot AH1000-12 schematic needed

  1. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkusBass View Post
    I'm surprised that you think that 90 € isn't cheap. This amp is worth about 500 €. Newer amps with similar power cost 1000 €, or more.
    I understand your point, but we are talking about a small part of one of the two the power amps. No power supply, no output filters, nothing but the driver and the power mosfets for 600 W mono. Compared to 250 € for a ICE stereo power amp capable of 1200 W including SMPS it's absolutely expensive!

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkusBass View Post
    The ICE modules are extremely difficult to buy and they cost about 200 -250 €. You would need two of them. And this would be crazy to pay 500 € to fix an amp that is worth 500 €
    I'm not sure it will be needed to have two. Some of them I've seen that are capable of working stereo or bridged mono. If it could be the case for the 1200AS2 as well, I would be done with one ICE module only.

    I'm waiting their reply on that.

  2. #37
    Supporting Member Jazz P Bass's Avatar
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  3. #38
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    Maybe the pics don't show the inflicted damage but that module looks repairable to me. Maybe even the AC018 module just needs the FETS replaced. I'd start by checking all the power rails on the board including the switching regulator. Next I'd look at the output prior to the filters to see if there is any activity. If nothing I'd check the shutdown signal on pin 17. Then, having found those to be OK I's unsolder the module and test the FETS. If it's a dead end at least you can go ahead with the module replacement or wholesale PCB replacement knowing you've given it a decent shot.
    Experience is something you get, just after you really needed it.

  4. #39
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    Thanks Jazz P Bass!

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    Thanks nickb, I will try the way you suggest before doing anything else.

    I have to say that I'm also thinking to sell the good module (I've asked some repair centers and one of them asked me if I want to sell the good one), and buy something like this one: IRS2092 Stereo Amplifier | Connex Electronic (or better, just to guve an idea) adding few more bucks.

  6. #41
    Supporting Member Jazz P Bass's Avatar
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    Why do you not simply run the amp with one module?

    How loud do you want it?

  7. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto View Post
    Thanks nickb, I will try the way you suggest before doing anything else.

    I have to say that I'm also thinking to sell the good module (I've asked some repair centers and one of them asked me if I want to sell the good one), and buy something like this one: IRS2092 Stereo Amplifier | Connex Electronic (or better, just to guve an idea) adding few more bucks.
    Have you checked out the class D boards on Ebay? You can get a 500W module for $20. Just search for IRS2092.
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  8. #43
    Supporting Member The Dude's Avatar
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    I used one of the IRS modules in an Acoustic amp. I couldn't find an STK for it that wasn't fake. It worked well- actually better than originally designed. And, the price is right!
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    “Yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.”

  9. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz P Bass View Post
    Why do you not simply run the amp with one module?
    How loud do you want it?
    It's not a matter of being loud, but to restore the original features of the amp.
    For my personal use and to sell it in the future.

  10. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by glebert View Post
    Have you checked out the class D boards on Ebay? You can get a 500W module for $20. Just search for IRS2092.
    Like those? www.ebay.it/itm/192155407840
    Are they reliable for this purpose (adding a bridge rectifier with enough filtering) running two modules as stereo or together bridged?

  11. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    I used one of the IRS modules in an Acoustic amp. I couldn't find an STK for it that wasn't fake. It worked well- actually better than originally designed. And, the price is right!
    Thanks The Dude, if you confirm they are working properly even if so cheap, I can buy two of them while trying to repair the original blown module.

  12. #47
    Supporting Member The Dude's Avatar
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    Here's a thread detailing my experience.

    STK404-140S Question

    Post #30 links the module I bought. There are different ones. You'll need to pay attention to mono/stereo, power output, power supply requirements, etc. Ebay is full of them. I have no doubt you can find one that would work.
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  13. #48
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto View Post
    It's not a matter of being loud, but to restore the original features of the amp.
    What for? Is this a collector amp or something? Did Jimi Hendrix use it in the last shopw of his life?
    For my personal use
    Then I guess a 500W mono Bass amplifier is enough
    and to sell it in the future.
    Will you spend $250 to $500 on a 20 year old amplifier with no particular Mojo attached which *might* sell for $500 if you are licky?

    Just being the Devil´s advocate, nothing personal.

    You might also spend the $90 on the replacement power block, ... anything further is burning money with a match.
    Juan Manuel Fahey

  14. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto View Post
    Like those? www.ebay.it/itm/192155407840
    Are they reliable for this purpose (adding a bridge rectifier with enough filtering) running two modules as stereo or together bridged?
    I haven't even gotten around to installing any of the modules I've bought (though I have amps that need them), but personally I would go with the biamp/stereo configuration and not try to bridge them. Who needs 1000W into one cabinet?
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  15. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by glebert View Post
    I haven't even gotten around to installing any of the modules I've bought (though I have amps that need them), but personally I would go with the biamp/stereo configuration and not try to bridge them. Who needs 1000W into one cabinet?
    No one, but this is the way this amp came out of the factory, I would like to keep it. In case of resell, if it's a matter of spending 30 euros for these ebay cheap modules that The Dude testes, it could be a a plus.

  16. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by J M Fahey View Post
    Just being the Devil´s advocate, nothing personal.
    You might also spend the $90 on the replacement power block, ... anything further is burning money with a match.
    I agree, that's why I told 90 € wasn't so cheap as a part of one of the two power amp modules.
    The Dude has proposed some cheaper solutions (around one third of it for 2 modules), using the big toroid already installed (plus a separate rectifier and capacitors board).

    EDIT: In Italy those amps are sold, used, at around 800-900 €.
    Last edited by Roberto; 05-02-2018 at 09:42 AM. Reason: New info on local price of the amp

  17. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto View Post
    EDIT: In Italy those amps are sold, used, at around 800-900 €.
    Then if you sell that used module, you should get quite a bit for it.
    Certified Dotard

  18. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto View Post
    No one, but this is the way this amp came out of the factory, I would like to keep it. In case of resell, if it's a matter of spending 30 euros for these ebay cheap modules that The Dude testes, it could be a a plus.
    If you plan on reselling one thing you'd better do is actually test it at full power with minimum load, which is not easy to do with a 1000 watt amp. I've got an Ampeg SVT 7 Pro that I have sold 3 times because it keeps having issues.
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  19. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by g1 View Post
    Then if you sell that used module, you should get quite a bit for it.
    Probably it should be like that, I've not investigated yet.

  20. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by glebert View Post
    If you plan on reselling one thing you'd better do is actually test it at full power with minimum load, which is not easy to do with a 1000 watt amp.
    Thanks for the tip glebert. Anyone uses electrical heaters to do such kind of tests? Something like three 2kW heaters in parallel (on this side of the pond we run at 230VAC) that should make something around 8 Ohm load (how hot the heaters run usually? in other words, will the resistance be much lower when run cold/warm?).

  21. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto View Post
    Thanks for the tip glebert. Anyone uses electrical heaters to do such kind of tests? Something like three 2kW heaters in parallel (on this side of the pond we run at 230VAC) that should make something around 8 Ohm load (how hot the heaters run usually? in other words, will the resistance be much lower when run cold/warm?).
    I do something like this, ours are usually rated for 1500W on 120VAC, which should be 8 ohm, but I have found the resistance at cold is more than expected (10 ohms), implying that they either don't actually run at the 1500 watts or perhaps the resistance drops when hot (but that would be opposite of normal physics of a metallic conductor). Often there are two coils in the heater (one for half power, both for full power) so you have to run those coils in parallel to get down close to 8 ohms.

    Oh, and while resistive load testing is good, some high power testing through a cab is important too. My cursed SVT 7 Pro's current problem only happens during vibration/shock (like what happens when sitting on a bass cab with 1000 watts coming out), and does not show up during a resistive test.
    Last edited by glebert; 05-03-2018 at 07:02 PM.
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  22. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by glebert View Post
    Oh, and while resistive load testing is good, some high power testing through a cab is important too. My cursed SVT 7 Pro's current problem only happens during vibration/shock (like what happens when sitting on a bass cab with 1000 watts coming out), and does not show up during a resistive test.
    Thank for this detail! May I know what was the issue, at the end? One of the broken amps that I've bought had similar issues and it was just a cold welding that broke down with the years. Half an hour and few cents to bring it back to life.
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  23. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto View Post
    Thank for this detail! May I know what was the issue, at the end? One of the broken amps that I've bought had similar issues and it was just a cold welding that broke down with the years. Half an hour and few cents to bring it back to life.
    Ampeg SVT 7 Pro cuts out with vibration

    Haven't gotten around to working on it yet, and I will admit it is mostly reluctance to even touch an iron to surface mount components, which is dumb.

  24. #59
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    Electrical water heaters are the best load resistor available over the counter.
    Run them under water, of course.
    Resistance variation is actually quite small, since you are not letting them run red or white hot, as in a lamp or an oven/toaster/etc. situation; boiling water is actuall real close to ambient temperature, compared to those other duties.
    10 ohms is actually real close to 8 ohms, if we are testing amp overheating, "burn in", etc. it´s close enough.
    And in fact 8 ohm real world speakers are above 10 ohms over most of their range, except at a midrange section between 200 and 350 or 400 Hz, just look at this graph:

    8 ohm red line; 10 ohm blue line:

    eminencelegend1258graph_sm.jpg
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    Juan Manuel Fahey

  25. #60
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    Thanks again glebert and Juan Manuel.

    So the easiest option is to put two water heating of 3 kW each in parallel, immersed in water and connected to a speakon connector.

    Considering 1 kW ouput power, and a reasonable 2 hours of continuous full power test, at least 25 liters of water are needed to avoid going into ebullition:
    1 kW are 860 kCal/h
    860 kCal/h / 25 liters = 34.4 K/h

    So we won’t go into ebullition even if the starting water temperature is 30 Celsius degrees, and considering no thermal dispersion into the ambient.

    Noting against ebullition, except it can sprout water on the test bench and vapour in the air that can condensate on colder surfaces.

    Do you use something similar Juan?
    Last edited by Roberto; 05-05-2018 at 12:46 PM.

  26. #61
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    "Reasonable 2 hours continuous output power test?"

    Say what???

    Believe it or not, for test purposes, you do not need to beat the piss out of the amp like that for that length of time.
    50% power output is probably harder on the amp.

    Unless maybe you are doing a current limit test ala QSC.
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    Perfect, so 600 W total will be enough, and water can go down to 15 liters: even better to be moved.

  28. #63
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    FWIW I use sections of standard "spring" type heating elements, eyelet/riveted to strips of Micanite (remanufactured Mica sheet) , which allows me to get *exact¨* resistance value needed, then drop such load resistors inside a bucket of water 1 or 2 meters away from bench, so even if it boils, no big problem.
    B esides being dirt cheap, they allow me to get off resistance vaalues at will, such as 6.6 o 5.5 ohm, which are typical real worldspeaker DC resistance values.
    Excellent to test protection circuits .
    Juan Manuel Fahey

  29. #64
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    I'm just back home from a long trip, while I've found some solutions:

    Substitute the modules at 60€ for both, and sell the working one:
    2x https://www.ebay.it/itm/121370148870

    Substitute the big toroid and final modules with those (small toroidal for the 12AX7s) at 120€ for both modules and resell the working module plus the toroid:
    2x https://www.ebay.it/itm/172546989166
    2x https://www.ebay.it/itm/282836152610
    https://www.tube-town.net/ttstore/Tr...7VA::5391.html


    Substitute the big toroid and final modules with those (small toroidal for the 12AX7s) at 115€ and resell the working module plus the toroid:
    1x https://www.ebay.it/itm/142742467613
    2x https://www.ebay.it/itm/282836152610
    https://www.tube-town.net/ttstore/Tr...7VA::5391.html
    Last edited by Roberto; 05-14-2018 at 01:15 PM. Reason: typo on link
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    They replied to me today: they do not sell directly, and the AS series cannot be sold in small numbers even from their partner site.

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    I've found a cheaper option to keep the toroidal and have the mono and stereo capabilities:
    Run the two windings of the PT in parallel to this bridge rectifier (GBPC50: 1000V 50A 1,1V drop), that costs 4 €:
    https://docs-emea.rs-online.com/webd...6b80dadbc2.pdf

    Then this module that costs 100 €:
    https://www.ebay.it/itm/142730977129
    Running stereo at 500 + 500 W on 4 + 4 Ohm or mono bridged at 1000 W on 8 Ohm.
    Two fans and an air filter will be added as well.

    And of course resell the two modules.

  32. #67
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    Note you also need a low voltage (6-12V) AC signal to that power module as well.

  33. #68
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    Thank you glebert, yes they told me 12-0-12 Vac or 15-0-15 Vdc.
    I'm waiting a reply about the needed current (that I think would be low), in order to see if I can use the PSU already present in the preamp (15-0-15 Vdc).

  34. #69
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    Ok, I finally came out with the following solution:

    1x https://www.ebay.it/itm/142742467613 @ 61 € shipped
    1000 W power supply with custom:
    +-70 VDC for the power amp
    +-15 VDC 500 mA for the preamp and the heaters of the preamp tubes (in series with 33 Ohm, so something less than 150 mA for them)
    +12 VDC 500 mA for the fans

    1x https://www.ebay.it/itm/172833474016 @ 67 € shipped
    1000 Wrms @ 8 Ohm power amp (if bridged, capable to run stereo as well as the original amp)
    Needs +-70 VDC plus +-15 VDC

    1x https://www.ebay.it/itm/192074192680 @ 20 € shipped
    Toroidal transformer 50 VA
    Pri 0-230 VAC
    Sec 0-200-260-290 VAC 180 mA (one secondary with three taps to try three different B+ for the 12ax7s)

    Total will be 148 €, and I'll have the original toroid and two modules (one working, one not) to sell, plus I'll save 22 kg of weight on the amp.

    Do you guys see something technically wrong in this solution?
    Thank you for your feedback.
    Last edited by Roberto; 05-18-2018 at 11:21 PM. Reason: typo

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